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Author Topic: Politics  (Read 241460 times)

vh

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Re: Politics
« Reply #600 on: April 11, 2014, 10:27:24 PM »
600

Darvince

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Re: Politics
« Reply #601 on: April 11, 2014, 10:33:49 PM »
sometimes I wish there was karma on this forum

blotz

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Re: Politics
« Reply #602 on: April 11, 2014, 10:55:35 PM »
more times i wish there wasn't

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #603 on: April 12, 2014, 09:45:04 AM »
my soul when

You think Hitler was a socialist???

Volksgemeinschaft cries for your soul then. Don't get confused with the racial homogeneity aspect, their Utopia was still Socialistic and top down government.


matty406

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Re: Politics
« Reply #604 on: April 12, 2014, 09:59:11 AM »
Bundling all socialism into one bag is going to make this thread travel quickly down the road of Godwin's law.

Darvince

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Re: Politics
« Reply #605 on: April 12, 2014, 10:26:47 AM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

Dan Dixon

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Re: Politics
« Reply #606 on: April 12, 2014, 02:35:48 PM »
Quote from: phinehas
illogical bullshit... parasites... ignorant... dumb... indoctrinated... crazy...

Hey phinehas, can you not be patronizing and demeaning toward others please?

Your tone and demeanor are not appreciated here. You're welcome to critique socialism all you want, but only without the personal attacks and slander.

[Capitalsim] is at odds with the common good and society in general.

Well said Atomic.

Look at heath care in the United States... for-profit health care means that thousands of people a year die (or go without basic care) because they lack insurance despite the fact that overall we spend almost twice per capita what other countries spend. I wish my taxes went to giving people healthcare instead of welfare and tax breaks for companies that clearly put profit before people...

tuto99

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Re: Politics
« Reply #607 on: April 12, 2014, 03:08:56 PM »
Why are people arguing... phinehas, if there is a problem, go somewhere else instead of just criticizing others. This is escalating too much.

Bla

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Re: Politics
« Reply #608 on: April 12, 2014, 03:34:17 PM »
Agreed with Atomic, well said. The number of examples is simply endless.

The arms industry: Benefits if a lot of crime happens so people feel a need to buy arms to feel secure. Benefits from wars between nations.

The insurance industry: Benefits from people feeling insecure and from high crime rates, high risks of disease, homelessness and other tragic conditions so that people are scared to buy their insurance.

The alcohol, tobacco and candy (and drug) industry: Benefits from ruining people's health and productivity.
The pollutive industry: Benefits from promoting propaganda 'research' portraying their pollution as non-existant or trivial.

All companies engaging in capitalist competition: Benefits from keeping their advances and research secret from the public, which other branches of society could benefit from.

The advertisement-funded media: Similarly benefits from positively portraying what they advertise for, and politicians who improve conditions for such companies, in the hope of being able to make better deals.
Industries selling goods to people: Benefits from wasting Earth's limited resources on advertising, made to convince people to further waste resources on things they don't necessarily need.

The clothing industry: Benefits from selling clothes to the west while their workers in Bangladesh and other places are kept in factories under deplorable jail-like conditions.

The coffee industry: Benefits from keeping millions of people as slaves in developing nations and then ship the coffee to the west and selling them for inflated prices, harvesting several times the production costs while the workers get only a tiny fraction of it in wages. A worker's revolution to take control of these injust industries would be more than justified.

The book industry: Benefits from making random, tiny revisions to their books and have the education system make students buy their new books over and over instead of recycling their own books or putting them onto a computer.

The gambling industry: Benefits from people who have no understanding of statistics and sometimes end up as gambling addicts.

The employers and producers: Benefit from unemployment, so that wages can fall as people accept poorer working conditions, lower wages and rights in fear of becoming unemployed. Benefits from creating the capitalist dystopia where fear of losing your job easily means losing your home and basic food security.

The medical industry: Benefits from health care personnel assigning medicine to people who may not actually need the medicine and give them diagnoses simply in order to boost their sales. (In Denmark, we have several cases of health care workers with secondary jobs in the medical industry).

Private hospitals: Benefit from a generally unhealthy society, where a lot of people get sick.

And of course, the pseudo-"medical" industry: Benefits from promoting eucalyptus leaves as the cure for cancer and all those other claims we've heard from people ranging from psychics to gurus to priests, trying to exploit the well-known placebo effect to earn money while the people risk their lives if they substitute proper treatment for this.

I am happy that many of these issues, such as the insurance issues, the healthcare issues, arms industry issues and others are relatively small here in Denmark compared to, for example, USA, Bahrein and Bangladesh. I am happy I can watch news and films without being interrupted by advertising. But I also hope to see a better society, where we move beyond the fundamentally flawed system of capitalism and all people of the world unite in their common interests for peace, cooperation and progress.

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #609 on: April 13, 2014, 02:57:42 PM »
Quote from: phinehas
illogical bullshit... parasites... ignorant... dumb... indoctrinated... crazy...

Hey phinehas, can you not be patronizing and demeaning toward others please?

Your tone and demeanor are not appreciated here. You're welcome to critique socialism all you want, but only without the personal attacks and slander.

[Capitalsim] is at odds with the common good and society in general.

Well said Atomic.

Look at heath care in the United States... for-profit health care means that thousands of people a year die (or go without basic care) because they lack insurance despite the fact that overall we spend almost twice per capita what other countries spend. I wish my taxes went to giving people healthcare instead of welfare and tax breaks for companies that clearly put profit before people...


Here is your response.
http://universesandbox.com/forum/index.php/topic,613.msg119910.html#msg119910

Condoning anti-Christian, anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim rhetoric on a forum directly related to your business is foolish.  It makes customers who are Christian, Jewish and Muslim think you and by extension your company and employees are religious bigots...and perhaps they will not want to do future business with Giant Army LLC. 

http://giantarmy.com/

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #610 on: April 13, 2014, 03:02:07 PM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

You actually think stating others are Socialist somehow refutes the original premise of Nationalsozialismus being a form of Socialism.  It doesn't.

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #611 on: April 13, 2014, 03:06:30 PM »
Quote
[Capitalsim] is at odds with the common good and society in general.

Quote
Well said Atomic.
- Dan Dixon.

So, Dan, setting aside the dichotomy of your thinking and your own business...are you a Socialist?  A Communist?  What exactly would you want the economy of the United States of America to adopt as it abandons capitalism? Like the ex Mozilla CEO, there are probably people that would want to know your personal views on matters, not that they are not pretty clear as written by what you have said...spell it out for the record.

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #612 on: April 13, 2014, 03:14:43 PM »
Also, I don't appreciate these types of messages being directed at me, as weird as they are by your minions.  I can't interpret it as anything but hostile.

"I'm outside your door drawing needles on the doorknob." -Xriqxa

vh

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Re: Politics
« Reply #613 on: April 13, 2014, 03:27:31 PM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

You actually think stating others are Socialist somehow refutes the original premise of Nationalsozialismus being a form of Socialism.  It doesn't.

he's saying that to consider nazi germany socialist would be to consider usa and it's allies socialist. since the latter clearly isn't the case, the former must be false too, which does refute the premise

Darvince

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Re: Politics
« Reply #614 on: April 13, 2014, 03:34:30 PM »
What the Christ is this topic

TheMooCows

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Re: Politics
« Reply #615 on: April 13, 2014, 03:35:00 PM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

You actually think stating others are Socialist somehow refutes the original premise of Nationalsozialismus being a form of Socialism.  It doesn't.

Nazi Germany is socialist, at least in name.

But the truth, as is often the case, is much more nuanced. The Nazi war economy was a mixed economy of free-market and central-planning practices. The government enacted massive deficit spending, largely on arms, that dropped unemployment and fueled an economic bubble that would last into the war years.

Private companies could still exist and collect profit, but they became heavily regulated. Trade unions were abolished, as well as collective bargaining and the right to strike. The right to quit also disappeared: Labor books were introduced in 1935, and required the consent of the previous employer in order to be hired for another job.

Nazi Germany was much more aligned with fascist economic ideals than it ever was with real socialism.

In economics, fascists oppose liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements. Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes resolving economic class conflict to secure national solidarity. They support a regulated, multi-class, integrated national economic system. Fascist economics supports the existence of private property, the existence of a market economy, and the use of the profit motive.

Socialism, on the other hand, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively. In other words, no profit-driven companies. The state runs everything.

Dan Dixon

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Re: Politics
« Reply #616 on: April 13, 2014, 03:51:33 PM »
I have no problem with you criticizing any idea that you want, but that's very different than calling other forum members "parasites", "ignorant", "dumb", "indoctrinated", or "crazy".

Being critical of religion is different than personally attacking people who are Christians.
Being critical of socialism is different than personally attacking people who think socialism is a good idea.

That idea is stupid. (okay)
vs
You are stupid. (not okay)

See the difference?

I'm not a huge fan of the Willy Wonka meme that Bla posted, but it's a far cry from what you directed toward him:

If you don't grow out of the ignorance you will remain a bitter parasite on the teat of productive society always looking for ways for your boot jack thugs to take from others to give to you...

You are either dumb, as in you're a young kid kind of dumb, so indoctrinated like a North Korean that you have fooled yourself or simply crazy...not medical treatment crazy but irritating crazy, the kind of crazy that expects people to take care of them all their lives crazy and doesn't see what's wrong with that.

Perhaps instead of pointing to the actions of others you should take personal responsibility for your own statements? (which doesn't mean that you can't criticize socialism)

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #617 on: April 13, 2014, 03:58:21 PM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

You actually think stating others are Socialist somehow refutes the original premise of Nationalsozialismus being a form of Socialism.  It doesn't.

he's saying that to consider nazi germany socialist would be to consider usa and it's allies socialist. since the latter clearly isn't the case, the former must be false too, which does refute the premise

Incorrect.  Darvince is stating that the USA and "allies" are Socialist...the allies are clearly Socialist, including the majority of the populace and the USA has a Marxist president and majority control of the government is Marxist.  They are all promoters of top down government planning of society through numerous means of control and force.  The only thing preventing America from going to the next steps as the Allies, is the fact that the majority of Americans think Capitalism is still the best system to increase the prosperity of ALL.  That only Capitalism allows for people to pursue happiness, that it has no artificial ceiling that hinders a person's dreams.  In America a person can use their God given talents along with their personal determination to make a life for themselves that is free.  One can make a software program about God's creation and make a living off of it...

Dan Dixon

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Re: Politics
« Reply #618 on: April 13, 2014, 04:02:19 PM »
I disagree with Darvince that the USA is socialist. It's far more like an oligarchy or plutocracy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

... the USA has a Marxist president...

Really? Obama's policies are pretty centrist and more like a Republican from the 1980s than anything resembling Marxism.

So, Dan, setting aside the dichotomy of your thinking and your own business...are you a Socialist?

I identify with Bernie Sanders, a self-described democratic socialist. He's one of the few national American politicians who's looking out for the people and the future of our planet (it helps that he's not owned by corporations).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

You're welcome to not buy my product because I believe:
- our planet is warming because of human activity
- the drug war is racist
- the Iraq war was justified on the basis of lies
- gay people should be free to get married
- what America calls enhanced interrogation is torture and it's abhorrent
- many Wall Street executives should be in jail for fraud
- our universe is a result of natural processes, there's no evidence that metaphysics is true or required
- Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning are both heroes for exposing crimes committed by our government
- we should give health care and food to poor people for free
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:08:31 PM by Dan Dixon »

Darvince

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Re: Politics
« Reply #619 on: April 13, 2014, 04:03:44 PM »
I'm saying that if phinehas thinks that Nazi Germany was socialist, then almost all major corporations (>99%) are also socialist because of their extreme top-down structure where the top is a set of people that changes slightly over time and the low ranks are constantly changing drones.

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #620 on: April 13, 2014, 04:06:00 PM »
I have no problem with you criticizing any idea that you want, but that's very different than calling other forum members "parasites", "ignorant", "dumb", "indoctrinated", or "crazy".

Being critical of religion is different than personally attacking people who are Christians.
Being critical of socialism is different than personally attacking people who think socialism is a good idea.

That idea is stupid. (okay)
vs
You are stupid. (not okay)

See the difference?

I'm not a huge fan of the Willy Wonka meme that Bla posted, but it's a far cry from what you directed toward him:

If you don't grow out of the ignorance you will remain a bitter parasite on the teat of productive society always looking for ways for your boot jack thugs to take from others to give to you...

You are either dumb, as in you're a young kid kind of dumb, so indoctrinated like a North Korean that you have fooled yourself or simply crazy...not medical treatment crazy but irritating crazy, the kind of crazy that expects people to take care of them all their lives crazy and doesn't see what's wrong with that.

Perhaps instead of pointing to the actions of others you should take personal responsibility for your own statements? (which doesn't mean that you can't criticize socialism)

Dan, again, your silence and condoning of religious bigotry on your business website is failure to take responsibility.  Have you not read the comments or watched the videos that have been posted that patronize and demean a large group of people, that indeed call them stupid, crazy and delusional.

So, you either think you can safely allow this to occur on your business website, as a means of projecting your own personal beliefs through proxy or what?  What's the alternative conclusion?  Your commercial customers who happen to be religious want to know.

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #621 on: April 13, 2014, 04:11:38 PM »
I disagree with Darvince that the USA is socialist. It's far more like an oligarchy or plutocracy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

... the USA has a Marxist president...

Really? Obama's policies are pretty centrist and more like a Republican from the 1980s than anything resembling Marxism.

So, Dan, setting aside the dichotomy of your thinking and your own business...are you a Socialist?

I identify with Bernie Sanders, a self-described democratic socialist. He's one of the few national American politicians who's looking out for the people and the future of our planet (it helps that he's not owned by corporations).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

You're welcome to not buy my product because I believe:
- our planet is warming because of human activity
- the drug war is racist
- the Iraq war was justified on the basis of lies
- gay people should be free to get married
- what America calls enhanced interrogation is torture and it's abhorrent
- many Wall Street executives should be in jail for fraud
- our universe is a result of natural processes, there's no evidence that metaphysics is required
- Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning are both heroes for exposing crimes committed by our government
- we should give health care and food to poor people for free

Nice list there, how about we add that you are a religious bigot?  Is that true?  Do you allow anti-religious posts on your business forum because you are in fact anti-religious or what?  Please explain to the commercial customers why you don't intervene in anti-religious posts but do so in pro-homosexuality posts, if not that you are anti-religious and think religious people are stupid, crazy and delusional.

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #622 on: April 13, 2014, 04:13:14 PM »
I'm saying that if phinehas thinks that Nazi Germany was socialist, then almost all major corporations (>99%) are also socialist because of their extreme top-down structure where the top is a set of people that changes slightly over time and the low ranks are constantly changing drones.

Top down organization is not the only aspect of Socialism.  Corporations are capitalistic entities.

tuto99

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Re: Politics
« Reply #623 on: April 13, 2014, 04:16:08 PM »
Phinehas why do you come here only to argue with people? Please just leave already.

Dan Dixon

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Re: Politics
« Reply #624 on: April 13, 2014, 04:17:07 PM »
You're free to do and think whatever you want... no one is forcing you to use or buy Universe Sandbox or the upcoming sequel which will have a strong focus on climate simulation (in order to provide education about human caused climate change).

I do not condone religious bigotry, but have no problem with the open discussion and critique of ideas. There's a difference between attacking someone who is a Christian and criticizing the claims of Christianity.

(Just like there's a difference between attacking someone who is a Socialist and criticizing the claims of Socialism.)

And please point out where on the forum members are attacking people personally (and not ideas).

Either way... I please ask that you not personally attack members of the forum.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:29:20 PM by Dan Dixon »

vh

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Re: Politics
« Reply #625 on: April 13, 2014, 04:18:09 PM »
I'm saying that if phinehas thinks that Nazi Germany was socialist, then almost all major corporations (>99%) are also socialist because of their extreme top-down structure where the top is a set of people that changes slightly over time and the low ranks are constantly changing drones.

Top down organization is not the only aspect of Socialism.  Corporations are capitalistic entities.

but darvince is saying that corporations are top-down structures, which has nothing do with aspects of socialism. corporations don't have to be capitalistic entities

phinehas

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Re: Politics
« Reply #626 on: April 13, 2014, 04:19:51 PM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

You actually think stating others are Socialist somehow refutes the original premise of Nationalsozialismus being a form of Socialism.  It doesn't.

Nazi Germany is socialist, at least in name.

But the truth, as is often the case, is much more nuanced. The Nazi war economy was a mixed economy of free-market and central-planning practices. The government enacted massive deficit spending, largely on arms, that dropped unemployment and fueled an economic bubble that would last into the war years.

Private companies could still exist and collect profit, but they became heavily regulated. Trade unions were abolished, as well as collective bargaining and the right to strike. The right to quit also disappeared: Labor books were introduced in 1935, and required the consent of the previous employer in order to be hired for another job.

Nazi Germany was much more aligned with fascist economic ideals than it ever was with real socialism.

In economics, fascists oppose liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements. Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes resolving economic class conflict to secure national solidarity. They support a regulated, multi-class, integrated national economic system. Fascist economics supports the existence of private property, the existence of a market economy, and the use of the profit motive.

Socialism, on the other hand, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively. In other words, no profit-driven companies. The state runs everything.

LOL, go figure, You ahve posted twice, your last post was in 2013 and all of a sudden you appear to post in this thread.  Nice try but even a fake consensus with bogus usernames means little.

vh

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Re: Politics
« Reply #627 on: April 13, 2014, 04:22:58 PM »
well he is a cow i guess he was eating grass

TheMooCows

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Re: Politics
« Reply #628 on: April 13, 2014, 04:24:44 PM »
well if you think nazi germany was socialist then I have news for you: USA and all its ally friends are socialist too. mostly the corporations though, like mcdonalds or walmart.

You actually think stating others are Socialist somehow refutes the original premise of Nationalsozialismus being a form of Socialism.  It doesn't.

Nazi Germany is socialist, at least in name.

But the truth, as is often the case, is much more nuanced. The Nazi war economy was a mixed economy of free-market and central-planning practices. The government enacted massive deficit spending, largely on arms, that dropped unemployment and fueled an economic bubble that would last into the war years.

Private companies could still exist and collect profit, but they became heavily regulated. Trade unions were abolished, as well as collective bargaining and the right to strike. The right to quit also disappeared: Labor books were introduced in 1935, and required the consent of the previous employer in order to be hired for another job.

Nazi Germany was much more aligned with fascist economic ideals than it ever was with real socialism.

In economics, fascists oppose liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements. Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes resolving economic class conflict to secure national solidarity. They support a regulated, multi-class, integrated national economic system. Fascist economics supports the existence of private property, the existence of a market economy, and the use of the profit motive.

Socialism, on the other hand, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively. In other words, no profit-driven companies. The state runs everything.

LOL, go figure, You ahve posted twice, your last post was in 2013 and all of a sudden you appear to post in this thread.  Nice try but even a fake consensus with bogus usernames means little.

um...I post in everything else which doesn't count to post total...Also good job attacking me and not my facts. Thanks.

Dan Dixon

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Re: Politics
« Reply #629 on: April 13, 2014, 04:27:39 PM »
Yeah... TheMooCows is a real person and not a carefully crafted conspiracy.