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Author Topic: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?  (Read 59794 times)

atomic7732

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2014, 08:22:38 PM »
Does status quo change? Were the slaves freed from the South? Do women have the right to vote? Do we have bathrooms not designated "white" or "colored"?

What do you think someone might say from before each of those times? "Are you stuck in a room somewhere? How can you not know that blacks are an inferior race/women are the inferior sex and that they can't work/vote? Do you see any blacks/women being doctors and lawyers and (etc)?"

Do you see how you sound? Nothing stays the same ever. Just because the majority holds a view that some way is the right way to live, doesn't mean that institution will be preserved forever.

And don't tell me I'm pulling the "race card". These are valid analogies.

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2014, 08:43:02 PM »
I have no idea what you are trying to convey.  Point is you think services and goods are free and that just isn't the case. Sure, perhaps in the distant future Startrek will become a reality and we will have technology to change matter into food and goods at a push of the button but until then...it's not going to change for a long time.  Again in case you missed it, there is nothing given away that is free.  It costs somebody, soemwhere, something.

TheMooCows

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2014, 08:45:25 PM »
It costs somebody, soemwhere, something.

hmm especially in capitalism where workers are exploited to make profit.

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2014, 08:49:56 PM »
and the workers themselves don't gain anything?  I don't know where you work, even if you do as it doesn't sound like it but I make more money every year than last.  I feed my family, pay a mortgage and am able to take vactions...it's like I am getting something for working...what is it, oh yeah, money.  Thank goodness for exploitation or I guess I would be doing whatever you are doing to survive.

TheMooCows

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2014, 08:52:07 PM »
Congrats. How about businesses that manufacture their products in other countries. In countries where there is no minimum wage, no safety regulations, no anything like that?

Malaysia, China....the list goes on of places where businesses exploit workers. 

Darvince

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2014, 08:54:04 PM »
Inflation. That is why you make more money than the last year, because otherwise after about 15 years you would be very poor and not be able to afford basic necessities. Actually, the absolute value of your wage probably hasn't increased in nearly forty years, unless you are a rich man, based on this chart:

atomic7732

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2014, 08:54:06 PM »
I have no idea what you are trying to convey.  Point is you think services and goods are free and that just isn't the case. Sure, perhaps in the distant future Startrek will become a reality and we will have technology to change matter into food and goods at a push of the button but until then...it's not going to change for a long time.  Again in case you missed it, there is nothing given away that is free.  It costs somebody, soemwhere, something.

I guess I wasn't clear, then. The point I'm trying to convey is not that goods are produced magically out of thin air, but that goods do not have to be produced en masse by exploited laborers for the goal of excessive profits (there we go, "greed", I think, yes?). Goods and services can be provided for the benefit of others (let's say, providing knowledge, teaching, and such things) with the assumed agreement that someone is going to take from that what they will and produce something of their own that society will in turn benefit from.

A basic living standard should not have to be worked for (with the possibility of failure and exploitation, don't get me wrong, people will still have to work, they will just have the safety net and guarantee of a decent life). As humans, we are far past having the capability of escaping that stage. For one to prosper in capitalism, it is always at the expense of another. Because you are climbing the ladder, you are taking something from someone else, intentionally or not. You seem to think that is intrinsic to being alive. It isn't.

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2014, 08:54:42 PM »
and those people would be doing what?  What you do?

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2014, 08:58:30 PM »
Inflation. That is why you make more money than the last year, because otherwise after about 15 years you would be very poor and not be able to afford basic necessities. Actually, the absolute value of your wage probably hasn't increased in nearly forty years, unless you are a rich man, based on this chart:


Wrong.  My raises have been above inflation.  I have made considerably more money every year based on performance.

Darvince

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2014, 08:59:17 PM »
Where do you live? This is not the case for nearly all Americans, especially those that have had to switch jobs at ANY time since the 1970s. It is much harder today to get a job than it was back then, as back then, every company was looking for someone to work for them and all you had to do pretty much was walk in and get an interview. This interview would probably be the same day, and you would be almost guaranteed to be accepted, expensive college debt that keeps you from starting a family or no expensive college debt that keeps you from starting a family.
Now, my mother is constantly looking for a job since she is in her upper 50s and businesses don't want her, as they now view people as they do in our view of the world, which is, objects to be exploited, not humans to provide for and build up. She does have a job right now, but when she has any suspicion that she is not going to have one any time soon, she begins filling up all her time when she is home with searching for jobs and applying for literally every one that is in any way relevant to what she has been doing the past twenty years. Most of the time, despite all of this, she is still unemployed for up to ten weeks if it is unexpected. Since 2007, until earlier this year, she has not been in a job where she is a full time employee.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 09:04:04 PM by Darvince »

atomic7732

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2014, 09:02:04 PM »
and those people would be doing what?  What you do?
This is the best reply in this thread. I'm done here.

Your capitalist-imperialist society is unsustainable and will soon fall apart. And when it does I'll be there to say I told you so.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 09:07:46 PM by atomic7732 »

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2014, 09:05:07 PM »
Well, I am sure your the Admin buddies have told you my IP address.  First off, I have switched jobs, it's called a career.  The goal is to do better through time and position yourself to make more money by doing something that business will pay more to "exploit".  I have been at the same physical place for awhile and I do a good job, good enough to have more money every year than the year before and not just on a inflation standpoint.

That being said, inflation is a problem for us all and will be worse soon enough.  That's not the fault of business.

Darvince

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2014, 09:07:41 PM »
No, they have not, and I think doxxing is disgusting since that's what you seem to think I want to do. My mother does have a career insofar as about 5 jobs over the past 15 years with similar aspects to all of them is a career, and the highest paying one, which was back around 2010, paid her $17 an hour by the end.

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2014, 09:10:21 PM »
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A basic living standard should not have to be worked for (with the possibility of failure and exploitation, don't get me wrong, people will still have to work, they will just have the safety net and guarantee of a decent life).

Wow, you almost made my draw drop on that one.  Good thing you picked it up some at the end.  Sorry man, there are no guarantees of anything in this world.


"As humans, we are far past having the capability of escaping that stage."

Reality doesn't agree.

"For one to prosper in capitalism, it is always at the expense of another. Because you are climbing the ladder, you are taking something from someone else, intentionally or not. You seem to think that is intrinsic to being alive. It isn't."

We can't all sit around wondering if that grocery cart won't be used by another person in a few minutes.  When there is a hole, people will fill it.  Seriously, don't think that the world is going to hold your hand and care about you, holding the door of opportunity so that you can walk through it.  The doors open and people walk, that's how it works.



TheMooCows

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2014, 09:13:19 PM »
Quote
A basic living standard should not have to be worked for (with the possibility of failure and exploitation, don't get me wrong, people will still have to work, they will just have the safety net and guarantee of a decent life).

Wow, you almost made my draw drop on that one.  Good thing you picked it up some at the end.  Sorry man, there are no guarantees of anything in this world.


"As humans, we are far past having the capability of escaping that stage."

Reality doesn't agree.

"For one to prosper in capitalism, it is always at the expense of another. Because you are climbing the ladder, you are taking something from someone else, intentionally or not. You seem to think that is intrinsic to being alive. It isn't."

We can't all sit around wondering if that grocery cart won't be used by another person in a few minutes.  When there is a hole, people will fill it.  Seriously, don't think that the world is going to hold your hand and care about you, holding the door of opportunity so that you can walk through it.  The doors open and people walk, that's how it works.

Is this truly the best thing? Does it have to be this way?

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2014, 09:13:54 PM »
No, they have not, and I think doxxing is disgusting since that's what you seem to think I want to do. My mother does have a career insofar as about 5 jobs over the past 15 years with similar aspects to all of them is a career, and the highest paying one, which was back around 2010, paid her $17 an hour by the end.

I don't know what doxxing is nor do I care.  Perhaps you should talk to you Mom about jobs and how the economy works and ask her if she would rather be working for the People's Republic of XYZ and if that would be a better life for you than some Capitalistic or quasi-capitalistic economy you live in.

Darvince

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2014, 09:17:28 PM »
We live in the United States of America, and receive aid from the government to pay for our health insurance. This program, across the country, is called medicaid. While it is health insurance, it is substandard. Should we not have this health insurance, because we (my family) are obviously a bunch of soul sucking bums that want to destroy the rich?

Also, doxxing is ruining someone's internet reputation, or stalking them and then sending them hate through the mail system, or in any other physical manner.

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2014, 09:24:48 PM »
"and receive aid from the government to pay for our health insurance. "

Correction, the government collects money from taxpayers and gives it to you for your use.  The US Government doesn't create wealth nor does it have any money of it's own to give.

"Should we not have this health insurance, because we (my family) are obviously a bunch of soul sucking bums that want to destroy the rich?"

I think you and others would be better off if the aid didn't come through a government that uses up x amount on the dollar to distribute it along with the political and otherwise, strings attached.




Darvince

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2014, 09:27:08 PM »
We would not be better off, and all of us would be paranoid of getting sick. Due to some error, I was not covered for the past six months, so as a result I didn't go to the doctor to get medications to speed up my illness, and instead suffered through a miserable ear infection for three days, as we simply cannot afford $200 on a whim.

vh

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2014, 03:59:07 AM »
Vh -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Korea

So, what?  They dropped it from their worthless piece of paper AFTER the collapse of the Soviet Union...

Besides, this guy says otherwise.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-10/can-you-name-five-remaining-communist-countries-world
Here is a whole site dedicated to this place.
http://www.koreanconfidential.com/isnorthkoreacommunist.html

Point being you can wrap it up with a stupid looking Kim Jong-un haircut and it's still basically the same crap, people at the top planning the economy and lives of everyone else because they know better and can do it better than the free market.  This of course denies reality and is false.

that was communism not socialism

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2014, 09:08:17 AM »
We would not be better off, and all of us would be paranoid of getting sick. Due to some error, I was not covered for the past six months, so as a result I didn't go to the doctor to get medications to speed up my illness, and instead suffered through a miserable ear infection for three days, as we simply cannot afford $200 on a whim.

I can't make you see the reason that spending $1000 in order to give somebody $100 is not efficient.  One day you will figure it out.

Darvince

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2014, 10:56:57 AM »
What the christ

Proof?

vh

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2014, 11:48:54 AM »
We would not be better off, and all of us would be paranoid of getting sick. Due to some error, I was not covered for the past six months, so as a result I didn't go to the doctor to get medications to speed up my illness, and instead suffered through a miserable ear infection for three days, as we simply cannot afford $200 on a whim.

I can't make you see the reason that spending $1000 in order to give somebody $100 is not efficient.  One day you will figure it out.

how does darvince's quote relate to $1000 or $100 or whatever you're saying

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2014, 12:21:05 PM »
Perhaps if you add the context of this in your quote...

http://universesandbox.com/forum/index.php/topic,11872.msg120213.html#msg120213

...you would understand my response.

vh

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2014, 01:41:01 PM »
I think you and others would be better off if the aid didn't come through a government that uses up x amount on the dollar to distribute it along with the political and otherwise, strings attached.

if the government uses $1000 to distribute $100 of aid because it goes "along with the political" that's corruption that's a problem, not socialism

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2014, 02:19:11 PM »
Uh, Socialism requires the mechanisms of a Government to operate..it's kind of key..you know, those people in the Government being the planners and deciders of liberty for people, controlling the means of production and all.  So, you can't remove the key element out of the equation.

Dan Dixon

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2014, 02:21:33 PM »
I can't make you see the reason that spending $1000 in order to give somebody $100 is not efficient..

It's more like the government spends $102 to give someone $100.
Private, for-profit insurance spends $117 to give someone $100.

"... administrative costs in Medicare are only about 2 percent of operating expenditures. ... the insurance industry estimate administrative costs as 17 percent of revenue." Source

phinehas

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« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:34:21 PM by phinehas »

Dan Dixon

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2014, 02:38:54 PM »
Obama is not a socialist. You undermine your credibility when you make such objectively untrue statements. On so many issues, his policies aren't that dissimilar from the policies of Bush before him. It's like you don't actually understand what socialism is or how centrist Obama's policies actually are.

And the claims of The Heritage Foundation are hardly objective.

Either way... it's nowhere near the 1000 / 100 that you suggested.

And if you look at almost any other industrialized country in the world (who almost all have socialized medicine) they spend far, far less and get better overall outcomes. The evidence does not point to a for-profit system being better or cheaper.

It's strange to me that you'd defend the profits of corporations over a system that would allow Darvince to get the healthcare he needs. If he'd been born in Denmark, he wouldn't have had to suffer through a miserable ear infection.

I'm glad that your raises from your job have been above inflation, but certainly you appreciate that this has not been true for most people over the last 30 years.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:53:46 PM by Dan Dixon »

phinehas

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Re: Why Does Socialism Always Fail?
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2014, 02:58:09 PM »
Obama is not a socialist. You undermine your credibility when you make such objectively untrue statements. On so many issues, his policies aren't that dissimilar from the policies of Bush before him.

He is a Socialist, Obamacare is Socialism and it will be a full system once they get single payer.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/12/20/is-president-obama-really-a-socialist-lets-analyze-obamanomics/

Quote
And the claims of The Heritage Foundation are hardly objective.
That's your personal opinion, you can up that up if you refute the numbers they give.

Quote
Either way... it's nowhere near the 1000 / 100 that you suggested.

Sure it's an exaggeration but I was also speaking as a whole, government spending.  The amount of money that comes in versus what comes out goes through a rather large filter every year by an expanding government of employees, taxation and waste to essentially the same thing each year.

Quote
And if you look at almost any other industrialized country in the world (who almost all have socialized medicine) they spend far, far less and get better overall outcomes. The evidence does not point to a for-profit system being better or cheaper.

I have and they don't.

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It's strange to me that you'd defend the profits of corporations over a system that would allow Darvince to get the healthcare he needs. If he'd been born in Denmark, he wouldn't have had to suffer through a miserable ear infection.

Profits of corporations?  You mean all the Doctors, nurses, techs and such?  People work for a profit.  I can only assume your company is not a non-profit.  Is it?  If not then, how are you in a position to judge the profits of other people and businesses.  Your profits are ok, everyone else's is excessive..is that how you rationalize it.

Ear infection.  Really?  That's one of the reasons why our heathcare costs have skyrocketed.  Everybody wants to go to the doctor or emergency room over every little thing.  Besides, he could go to the emergency room and he would be treated, they don't turn anybody away.  Miserableness gone.

Why do you want a Government to handle everything for you?  Why give up control over your own life, the choices and decisions you can make for your own life.  I don't understand that, but you can always move your duffle bag of stuff out of Seattle and go someplace that has a government and a society that wants a government with all that control.  So why don't you go some other place versus trying to change America into something that already exists.