Politics

[Bla]

This topic was split from the Solar System Creator Wiki topic, as the discussion got off topic.
Discuss politics here.

I mean about this.

Aha, I didn't even know about that.

I might've asked this a long time ago, but what's so bad about communism? It's where everyone is equal right?

There's nothing bad about Communism, I'd say. It's the most beautiful idea ever. However, many people think that Communism doesn't work, and that it's the reason why so many self-declared "Communist" countries have failed. There's nothing wrong with Communism, there's something wrong with humans. We may simply be too greedy by nature for it to work. Or most of us might have been brought up to be greedy, as a part of living in Capitalist countries.

There are a lot of Communists in Europe, I think... So far three of my teachers have been Communists, two of them were social studies teachers. And I'm also a Communist (depending on your definition of it). I don't think the goal is to create a stateless society though.

[deoxy99]

I might've asked this a long time ago, but what's so bad about communism? It's where everyone is equal right?

It's a bad thing as everyone gets the same amount of money no matter how hard and long they work.

Bla, you just got brainwashed into liking Communism. I hate it.

[Naru523]

That's because Capitalists hate Communism.

[deoxy99]

That's because Capitalists hate Communism.

Whatever.
I don't hate it just because I am a Capitalist, but it is just not fair.

[Bla]

That's an awesome map.

It's a bad thing as everyone gets the same amount of money no matter how hard and long they work.

But why should the quality of your life be based on how much you work? I think everyone deserve equally good lives. And I really don't think ANYONE's work is worth millions of dollars, nobody can work that much more than the rest of us earning far less. I don't think the goal of society should be to make people work as much as possible, instead, it should be to produce what is needed to make everyone have as good lives as possible.

Bla, you just got brainwashed into liking Communism. I hate it.

I certainly didn't. If anything I got brainwashed into being afraid of Communism. I began to think out my own political opinions, which I called Blaism, but I came to many of the same conclusions as Communism.

I have to say communism isn't fair. Really, you aren't allowed to say "I don't like this new law", or say specific things in things. w/e

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with Capitalism or Communism. You can have a Capitalist society in which there's no freedom of speech. You could also have a democratic Communist country in which there is freedom of speech.

[Darvince]

Communism is automatically made out to have dictators, no freedom of speech, constant war, etc.

[Bla]

Communism is automatically made out to have dictators, no freedom of speech, constant war, etc.

No it isn't. Why should it be any less possible to have a democratic, peaceful Communist country with freedom of speech?
And I don't think any American Capitalist should critizise Communists for constant war... I don't think there's a single country on Earth which has started as many wars as USA. I don't know what it looks like from within. The solution to Capitalist problems, like crises, seem to always be the expansion of Capitalism. The colonization and exploitation of Africa, Asia and America was to begin with militant Capitalist countries which wanted more resources and did not care about the workers.
Communism is all about letting everyone work according to their ability and receive resources (word used in a broad sense) according to their need.
Dictators... Communist countries could have that, just like any Capitalist country. But a Communist country could also be democratic, as long as the majority want it to be Communist. Same about freedom of speech.

And let me ask you to consider this: How democratic is it that all the rightist political parties receive massive fundings from corporations, because the corporations benefit from low taxes, so they can get massive coverage in the media, advertise and spread their opinions everywhere, while leftist parties receive none? That is a built-in automatically self-biasing element in Capitalist societies.

This discussion is going off topic... Should I move it into a seperate topic for politics?

[Darvince]

No I meant capitalists do.

[Naru523]

I don't think there's a single country on Earth which has started as many wars as USA. Spain, Britain, France, and some other countries that still existed around 1400.

This discussion is going off topic... Should I move it into a seperate topic for politics? Yes.

[space guy1]

Bla: Your right, communism can be a very good system if it is done right.  The main problem with it is that it tends not to allow individuality.  You have to fit in with the status quo or thew system tends to fall apart.  But everybody is different.  There may be a way around this, but i dont know what it is.

 And america has been involved in so many wars becauyse we cant not stick our nose into other peoples business.

[Flashstar]

obama's guna kill us all

[Darvince]

No no no he's not

[Bla]

Bla: Your right, communism can be a very good system if it is done right.  The main problem with it is that it tends not to allow individuality.  You have to fit in with the status quo or thew system tends to fall apart.  But everybody is different.  There may be a way around this, but i dont know what it is.

 And america has been involved in so many wars becauyse we cant not stick our nose into other peoples business.

I think Communism exactly allows for people to be different. In Capitalism, everyone are expected to work, and if they can't (for whatever reason, even the market economy itself being unable to provide work for everyone), you're just unlucky and can go sleep on the street and starve to death.
Of course, that usually results in crime, which is one reason why there is so much crime in Capitalist systems. Communism accepts that everyone are different, and helps those who need it to live a good life.
What I hear from the right wing, especially the Conservative part, is exactly the expectation that everyone fit into their understanding of what the country's culture is, everyone fit into their definition of how one man and one woman should live together etc. This is what does not allow people to be different.

[atomic7732]

Not when we're humans Bla. Put anyone in the governments position (well not ANYONE) and you get a poorly handled situation with a power hungry dictator. Or something like that.

[Bla]

Not when we're humans Bla. Put anyone in the governments position (well not ANYONE) and you get a poorly handled situation with a power hungry dictator. Or something like that.

So we can't have governments?

[atomic7732]

Right.  

I'm saying communist government.

[Bla]

Right. 

I was applying this to all countries. Why should a Capitalist country be able to have a good government, but not a Communist one?
And what if the power is distributed among several people? I think the law and the situation in the country is the biggest factor in whether the government will form a dictatorship or not.

[Naru523]

I kinda hate Communist countries. Why? It's because l have a grudge against the Chinese allies because they transformed my mother's country (in this case, Laos) into a communist nation, therefore killing off and kicking us Hmongs. Although, there seems to be an never ending war...

[Darvince]

HHHMMMOOONNNGGG

[Naru523]

HHHMMMOOONNNGGG

You understand me completely, dwarf!

[atomic7732]

Darv is a O V star? Heh. sucks for him.

[Dan Dixon]

This is an interesting discussion.

Bla, what are your thoughts on socialism vs. communism?

[Bla]

This is an interesting discussion.

Bla, what are your thoughts on socialism vs. communism?

Socialism is the transition from Capitalism to a stateless Communist society, I think that's the definition. In Europe/Denmark we often view Socialism as "a mild form of Communism" where the country may have a market economy, with a very large public sector etc., and everyone aren't really equal. I don't like that, because I think a planned economy is much more efficient.

I'm not sure about the statelessness. I don't see any reason to abolish the state, but if it isn't needed, why not... I certainly don't think it could be done as long as the population is focusing on competition, the planned economy would be needed in this case because it should make everyone cooperate instead, which could hopefully continue without the state.
I've always thought of Anarchism as an ultimate form of Capitalism, but I've realized it could be both ways. It could be a society with complete freedom, where no one or small fractions work together and destroy everything, or where everyone manage to cooperate on a large scale.

I think Socialism is certainly better than pure Capitalism, if it keeps the market economy, but I still think the market economy is very harmful to especially peoples' way of thinking, the environment and the long term strategy of managing a society.

[atomic7732]

You like science right? And you're assigned a job to work... as... a... toy factory worker for the rest of your life.

How would you like that?

[Bla]

You like science right? And you're assigned a job to work... as... a... toy factory worker for the rest of your life.

How would you like that?

I wouldn't, and I think I see where you're getting the argument from.

Basically, it is that in a Communist system, the government would mindlessly give you a job without considering what you want or even what you're good at, right?

It doesn't have to be that way. In the education system, the state finds out what you're good at, and tries to assign people to work with what they're best at. What you become good at should also reflect what you're interested in, and interests are formed by the environment people live in, so the state can affect peoples' interests indirectly by making the education system focus on different things which will cause the right diversity of workers needed in the future.

And the Scientific output in capitalist countries is far too low in my opinion. Corporations all closing their Science so opponents don't get their ideas, instead of all scientists cooperating. Science and education is so often cut, while we waste more resources on stupid tobacco, alcohol, candy and other useless things.

[Bla]

Very interesting. American propaganda infected Danish state media a lot in the 1950's, and in the 1960's American culture spread to Denmark.
Recently, it has been discussed a lot whether Danish media was very leftist in the 1970's, but interestingly, no foreign state ever got any material sent, in contrast to USA.
Sources:
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Kultur/2011/05/09/141640.htm
http://www.dr.dk/P1/Alletidershistorie/Udsendelser/2011/05/06143028.htm
They're in Danish though, so you'll have to use Google Translate if you're interested.

I'd wish we could get rid of this liquified crap (AKA Coca Cola) and all this fat-in-disguise (AKA McDonald's, Burger King etc.) (Disclaimer: I don't claim that it's the actual contents, so don't bother suing me if you find out, corporations, like all those stupid libel cases to protect corporations from free speech and science in Great Britain!). Not only is it harming the health of people who consumes it while actually gaining money from it, but they, including houndreds of other multinational corporations, have not paid any (significant) taxes for years, by using transfer pricing, greedily leeching the health and money out of our society. Our current liberal-conservative government is not determined to do anything about it at all, for some reason. But of course our Communist party was the first to investigate this and point it out while everybody else is sleeping.

I can't help but think about a society changed from our current state in Western Europe into a planned economy, where we started spending the resources from coke, candy, tobacco, alcohol and fast food on healthcare, started spending the resources from ads to actual information services trying to inform people rather than convincing them (saving both people and society from wasting resources on stuff people actually don't find useful but are just convinced to buy) and all these other things we take for granted in our society...
Even the Soviet Union achieved a longer lifespan than USA during a period, going from a life expectancy of 44.4 years in 1926 to 68.6 years in 1959. Despite their alcohol.

[atomic7732]

It's kinda natural selection.

[Bla]

It's kinda natural selection.

What is? I do know two political systems in which natural selection exists, but I think we're going to pick different ones.

[atomic7732]

Just don't give those big fast food corporations your money that often, and you'll be fine.

[Bla]

What are you talking writing about?