Universalis Project Goals

[Bla]

also http://universesandbox.com/forum/index.php/topic,6014.msg149532.html#msg149532 this is where i got the thing that you don't want people to do climate simulations, nue never said he was going to force it on anyone at any point

And I never said I didn't want him to do climate sims at any point, I just said his sim didn't fit with my plans to make it clear I wasn't going to use it. The next post basically told me to move the country though...

[tuto99]

guys are you serious this is a fucking collaboration. make a plan, do some editing, instead of like doing nothing and just "blablablablalblabal bich kolokia is an orge swamp"

[Darvince]

my sides

[Bla]

guys are you serious this is a fucking collaboration. make a plan, do some editing, instead of like doing nothing and just "blablablablalblabal bich kolokia is an orge swamp"

I would probably work more on editing if people didn't threaten with quitting the project or turn their nations into icecaps because they're not satisfied with what I'm making. That has been putting me off lately and I feel like it's necessary to take some time to respond to it.

I could work on e.g. more details about the Social Justice Wars or maybe a transport map or population density map for Blaist Blaland but all that makes little sense if people are demanding it to be moved or have another climate unless I want a lot of work to potentially go to waste. So until the discussions are over and I have the impression people acknowledge what I've made it's very limited what I'm going to work on. I hope you see.

<Tuto>bla i think you should give in a bit

But---I thought you wanted editing instead of discussion? How do you think I should give in a bit concretely? I suppose making a 100 by 100 km square desert won't work.

[atomic7732]

My concern is that if I, or someone else, wants to do some sort of climate simulation, or something with the weather, what affect does it have on the nations around you, and an "immersive" world, if some nation in the middle of a desert is a temperate utopia? How can I factor that into my climate and weather, as I am east of you and affected by wet Blaland? And from a collaborative world standpoint, how does that affect the history of the Blagua subcontinent? If there's some gradient, you'll have to agree on it with Hellpotatoe and Darvince, and if they don't agree with you, a climate changing right at the borders seems kind of silly. So you'd probably have to go with starting the gradient inside your borders, giving you a less ideal, significantly smaller area of optimal climate. How would a living human or saguan react to that in the world of Universalis and what implications would it have on the past and present history?

And I never said I didn't want him to do climate sims at any point

Well, you kind of did

well, I didn't put Blaland there back then and didn't expect people to suddenly want to make a climate model to enforce upon everyone some years later. I'd rather move Blaland out or just leave the project than having you decide my country should be a desert but I don't think it's hard to see what a mess it would be to move it and tbh I don't think it's really my problem.

The implication there being "I didn't expect a somewhat realistic, inteconnected, climate model in a community interested in science, and its not my problem that I want to be different"

[FiahOwl]

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[Bla]

My concern is that if I, or someone else, wants to do some sort of climate simulation, or something with the weather, what affect does it have on the nations around you, and an "immersive" world, if some nation in the middle of a desert is a temperate utopia? How can I factor that into my climate and weather, as I am east of you and affected by wet Blaland?

You could do it however you like? You could base your model on Blaland having the wet climate or ignore it and act like it's a desert if you prefer. As long as you don't come and tell me what the climate inside Blaist Blaland is.

And from a collaborative world standpoint, how does that affect the history of the Blagua subcontinent?

I have no idea? Is that really a problem any more than how a desert would affect the history? I'll probably have some problems with the history I've written so far if it's all desert.

If there's some gradient, you'll have to agree on it with Hellpotatoe and Darvince, and if they don't agree with you, a climate changing right at the borders seems kind of silly.

Has Hellpotatoe ever agreed to use your climate thing? Just wondering as I haven't seen it and same with several of the other more inactive people.
There's a sea between me and Darvince, that should give enough of a 'gradient' if necessary, as I only really care about the climate at land. The mountain areas also aren't very important so Hellpotatoe shouldn't be a problem either. The gradient can be entirely inside Blaland if necessary as the climate around the borders isn't very important.

So you'd probably have to go with starting the gradient inside your borders, giving you a less ideal, significantly smaller area of optimal climate.

Well all those words really depend on how big the gradient but depending on the size obviously it's no problem.

How would a living human or saguan react to that in the world of Universalis and what implications would it have on the past and present history?

I think you already asked this above

And I never said I didn't want him to do climate sims at any point

Well, you kind of did

well, I didn't put Blaland there back then and didn't expect people to suddenly want to make a climate model to enforce upon everyone some years later. I'd rather move Blaland out or just leave the project than having you decide my country should be a desert but I don't think it's hard to see what a mess it would be to move it and tbh I don't think it's really my problem.

The implication there being "I didn't expect a somewhat realistic, inteconnected, climate model in a community interested in science, and its not my problem that I want to be different"

That's not what I said. I said I didn't want the climate model enforced upon people, as in if people don't want to adopt it for their countries, their countries won't have the climate the model says.
The science thing is this realism argument all over. I already commented on that.
"It's not my problem I want to be different" well it really does seem like there wasn't any problems until some people decided to do a lot of work on climate and created this problem. I liked the project for as long as I could focus on the economy, polittics, history and for the past few years assumed nobody would complain about the settings I had chosen or now also the lakes/borders I had drawn for the country. Since I don't plan to study climate or geology maybe I should just hire some scientists to design the whole nation for me...

I do wonder how you'd deal with the fact that the climate simulation isn't perfect though. If you find a flaw or make an improvement, suddenly the climates in a lot of areas will change and as you point out, that will affect history etc. That would be really impractical if people have done a lot of work on that (maybe you can see why I don't want to adopt it?).

Interesting point about how people inside Universalis would see Blaland's magical raining climate. Maybe the Blaists will start worshiping a rain god!

Nice one coming from the one who usually likes to tell others not to mock me. I wonder how people in Universalis see your humans who happened to exist there by magic. Because nobody here bothered to study biology, the origin of life and evolution... let's see how far people get into designing their history and human-related technology before a few guys here start to do an evolution simulation or design alien species and demand everybody else to use that... and see how excited the rest are to throw away their work... cheers

[FiahOwl]

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[Bla]

The difference here is that we can create an evolutionary history that is plausible and leads to humans evolving on Universalis. In the current situation Blaland is in we cannot create a climactic situation that is plausible and leads to it getting lots of rain short of playing god and handwaving the problem of rain by magically inducing it.

The same could be said about picking a chain of events throughout billions of years of history on a planet with an entirely different climate/geology history and other factors that just happen to end up forming creatures identical to humans, with their enormous amount of details. Anyone who reads it will immediately know this is only set up so we didn't have to bother thinking about how life might actually evolve in another scenario. It's about as unlikely as saying all the water molecules by their random motion just happen to form more rain over Blaist Blaland. Picking the chain of events leading to humans is no different from picking the chain of events leading the water molecules to rain. Your story just relies on the fact that you find it legitimate to pick the chain of events in evolution, but not for water molecules. It doesn't make it more plausible.

I'm also wondering what the stance is of Matty, Naru and the others who haven't commented. Is it ok to force people to use someone's climate model and have to adapt their history etc. if the climate model is improved?
I feel like I can't really work on many things in the project as long as I don't know if everyone is demanding that I use another climate (and maybe edit the landscape too now with the lakes being an issue as well).

[FiahOwl]

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[atomic7732]

Your story just relies on the fact that you find it legitimate to pick the chain of events in evolution, but not for water molecules. It doesn't make it more plausible.

Well, if the correct chain of events did occur, the laws of physics do allow for human evolution, apparently. But the laws of physics do not necessarily allow for a complete denial of general climate knowledge in an Earth-like atmosphere. It can probably be assumed "water molecules" act the same way as on Earth. Human evolution and realistic climate are entirely different arguments because we've come to a consensus that humans inhabit Univeralis. Everyone generally agrees on that and accepts it. The climate debate is still open.

I do wonder how you'd deal with the fact that the climate simulation isn't perfect though. If you find a flaw or make an improvement, suddenly the climates in a lot of areas will change and as you point out, that will affect history etc. That would be really impractical if people have done a lot of work on that (maybe you can see why I don't want to adopt it?).

You're going into a science-field major and I think you know well enough that's not how science works in the 21st century. Unless you fully expect that quantum mechanics and Newton's laws of gravity and such are going to be overturned in the next hundred years. If we find or construct a model that follows the general laws and concepts of an Earth-like system for the atmosphere, any updates will likely only refine the initial findings. It shouldn't be expected to completely overturn previous understanding of the Universalian climate. Saelunavvk might have been considered to be a temperate place with 40 inches of rain a year on average, but the change in climatology with new findings might update it to a more accurate 45 or 43.2 inches, well within the year to year range (which could very easily range from 30 to 50 inches or more). So no, I don't think updating the model would be a problem.

You could do it however you like? You could base your model on Blaland having the wet climate or ignore it and act like it's a desert if you prefer. As long as you don't come and tell me what the climate inside Blaist Blaland is.

Has Hellpotatoe ever agreed to use your climate thing? Just wondering as I haven't seen it and same with several of the other more inactive people.

This is not an argument you can just shirk off as your universal right because I'm encroaching upon you. That's not your position; this isn't a religious argument. We both have issues we need to solve because we're at a disagreement. It's not solely my duty to warp my world around your firmly grounded position. It hasn't been decided whether Blaland should be allowed to have its own climate independent from the rest of the world, and we haven't discussed thoroughly the implications it would have on the project. And frankly, threatening to leave the project (as quoted earlier) over such a disagreement is childish, whether you still stand by that point or not.

I can understand where you are coming from in that you don't want the work you've done to be undone, but this is a collaborative project and other people's interests are going to affect both mine and your existing and future work.

As an aside:

There's a sea between me and Darvince

Darvincia proper, yes, but Blaland borders the saguan nations, which are also his.

[vh]

As for the climate model I don't really too interested in it but I guess I don't care too much either but I don't want to be restricted by it and I'm not really. But I think we should take a big picture view.

Either we use realistic climate or we don't. Or maybe there's a third option. In any case, just list all our options. For every option, some people will be upset and others will be happy. All we need to do is to figure out a method of approximating the satisfaction of everyone with the result of each option. Then take the max and execute that option.

#utilons

[Bla]

You said you don't mind the development of human civilization on Universalis paralleling that of Earth because "it's realistic from what we know. Something like it has happened once at the very least."

No - let me show the quote:

universalis already has a sort of setting/storyline which parallels the development of human civilization on earth

I don't mind this because it's realistic from what we know. Something like it has happened once at the very least. We just don't know what the probability of it happening is exactly, but it turned out something like it wasn't totally unrealistic to happen in the universe. If we square that and multiply by 1/10,000,000, it could easily not be the case.

(If that was a comment on the statistics part and not just linked to your reason for not to wanting the change)

Kip says parallels the development of human civilization on Earth - that's not the same as development of human civilization on Universalis! In fact I argued against human civ on Universalis long ago exactly because I think it's implausible but Tuto and others wanted humans and now that discussion is over and I can live with that now.

We are picking a chain of events through thousands of years of history on a planet with an entirely different climate/geology history and other factors that just happen to end up forming societies and ideologies similar (but compared to the number of possibilities, I'd say almost identical) to those on Earth.

What's the difference between the evolution of Earth-like societies and the evolution of humans?

Nothing that's relevant here.

I don't like it that Blaland's current geographic location gives it tons of rain because it's not realistic from what we know. Nothing like that has happened before. There's not a convincing explanation behind it, be it theory or simply pointing to our planet and showing that it can happen.

If you can cherry pick a chain of events leading to humans and similar societies you can also cherry pick random molecular events that happen to form rain. You can't say you need magic for one but not the other. Both are extraordinarily unlikely if you didn't involve choice (and your opinion on where that's legitimate) in the statistics. That was my point with it.

Well, if the correct chain of events did occur, the laws of physics do allow for human evolution, apparently. But the laws of physics do not necessarily allow for a complete denial of general climate knowledge in an Earth-like atmosphere. It can probably be assumed "water molecules" act the same way as on Earth. Human evolution and realistic climate are entirely different arguments because we've come to a consensus that humans inhabit Univeralis. Everyone generally agrees on that and accepts it. The climate debate is still open.

The place where you throw away all the statistics in the evolution analogy that you use to argue against the rain is shown in bold. Neither is more magic than the other.

You're going into a science-field major and I think you know well enough that's not how science works in the 21st century. Unless you fully expect that quantum mechanics and Newton's laws of gravity and such are going to be overturned in the next hundred years. If we find or construct a model that follows the general laws and concepts of an Earth-like system for the atmosphere, any updates will likely only refine the initial findings. It shouldn't be expected to completely overturn previous understanding of the Universalian climate. Saelunavvk might have been considered to be a temperate place with 40 inches of rain a year on average, but the change in climatology with new findings might update it to a more accurate 45 or 43.2 inches, well within the year to year range (which could very easily range from 30 to 50 inches or more). So no, I don't think updating the model would be a problem.

I can expect your models to have some flaws that may turn out to be significant without expecting revolutions in physics. Because of code typos, because you're not a phd meterologist yet (I'm sure you're very good of your age but still) or whatever reasons. I don't have as much confidence in your model as I would have in a lot of other scientific areas.

This is not an argument you can just shirk off as your universal right because I'm encroaching upon you. That's not your position; this isn't a religious argument. We both have issues we need to solve because we're at a disagreement.

Well this irc chat from 4 days ago gave me the impression we weren't at a disagreement anymore

(23:29:45)<Kalassak>the whole coherence and realism thing
(23:29:46)<Valenceta>but they're believable
(23:29:51)<Kalassak>tbh doesn't mean anything to me anymore
(23:30:05)<Valenceta>yeah kalassak so the moment somebody argues the opposite point you totally collapse your side
(23:30:15)<Darvince>and before i'm told i'm a shitty human being i already know that
(23:30:16)<Kalassak>like why should i care that bla's climate is realistic
(23:30:20)<Kalassak>it doesn't affect me
(23:30:29)<stowaway>you can have fiction that has realistic elements
(23:30:29)<Kalassak>just my personal want that the climate of blaland meshes with the prest of the planet
(23:30:31)<Kalassak>that's selfish

It's not solely my duty to warp my world around your firmly grounded position.

So far I've offered to move the continent, I've offered to at least consider 5 belts, I've offered gradients inside my borders, I've also been open to having areas that are more dry than forest in many places, and more like savanna maybe. None of it has been enough for the firm demands to impose a climate model, so I wouldn't throw that rock.

It hasn't been decided whether Blaland should be allowed to have its own climate independent from the rest of the world, and we haven't discussed thoroughly the implications it would have on the project.

I just suggested the consequences: You can basically choose whatever consequences you like in your simulation which you apply to the rest of the world. This is outside my interest.

[FiahOwl]

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[atomic7732]

The place where you throw away all the statistics in the evolution analogy that you use to argue against the rain is shown in bold. Neither is more magic than the other.

I can expect your models to have some flaws that may turn out to be significant without expecting revolutions in physics.

That's not how the laws of physics work... Generally if something's changed (for example, something that would allow blaland to be wetter) it applies consistently, and not in just one geographical region. All places similar to blaland would also be affected, if we want coherence. This is an issue of incoherence, not the laws of physics being different. It's like you copy pasted the laws of physics in your area, and that area only.

Also, I don't have to be the one making the models. There are other global climate models, developed by Actual Professionals^TM, available which we might be able to use and modify.

because you're not a phd meterologist yet

I don't intend to get a PhD at the moment, so that's not relevant, as you like to say.

This is a lot like the economic/population discussion where people used Earthly guidelines to determine their facts because they aren't actual economists and then claiming "unless you're an economist you can't prove me wrong", which is really not ideal and we can work around that as a group. We don't have to be experts, and we don't have to make everything be magical, we can approximate realism.

Well this irc chat from 4 days ago gave me the impression we weren't at a disagreement anymore

I didn't feel like arguing and I felt pretty apathetic about most things then.

This is outside my interest.

So because you, personally, don't care about it, means we should change the way the project is run as a collaborative entity? If it's outside your interest, then you wouldn't care that much about Blaland's climate. Yes, you can be concerned about the climate in your land without being interested in the climate simulation, I get that.

So far I've offered to move the continent, I've offered to at least consider 5 belts, I've offered gradients inside my borders, I've also been open to having areas that are more dry than forest in many places, and more like savanna maybe.

I have been open to moving your land, though no one has taken any initiative to attempt this (I figured you or Fiah might try this, because it's your land, and Fiah is geology man), brushing it off as implausible, so maybe I'll try it later. A savanna solution might work for some regions of Blaland. 5 belts is quite improbable in my opinion.

[swonx]

Alright this is just a suggestion but what if instead of
"Blaland is ALL desert" and "Blaland is ALL wet
We had like a big river system thing, formed from rain from Blagua. This way Blaland remains a desert but still has a lot of water to sustain its large population, like a bigger Egypt. And the central sea/lake thing in Blaland would probably be like the centre of Blaland in everything.


 

[Bla]

That's not how the laws of physics work... Generally if something's changed (for example, something that would allow blaland to be wetter) it applies consistently, and not in just one geographical region. All places similar to blaland would also be affected, if we want coherence. This is an issue of incoherence, not the laws of physics being different. It's like you copy pasted the laws of physics in your area, and that area only.

None of what I said is based on the fundamental laws of physics being actually different. Climate depends on thermodynamics which are laws based on the fact that there are a lot of molecules and therefore applying statistical arguments. On the other hand you use choice when you choose this chain of events where the atmospheric composition over billions of years, along with the continent movements and interactions with all the other species, turn out to just happen to give rise to humans here with all their footprints of their Earthly evolutionary history. If you can choose something like that you can also choose molecular motions that don't at all tend to maximize entropy. In either case you just choose a setting that happens to be so extraordinarily unlikely it's implausible.

Also, I don't have to be the one making the models. There are other global climate models, developed by Actual Professionals^TM, available which we might be able to use and modify.

We might yes, but with our limited knowledge I'm not confident in how realistic it is to apply to our planet. And I think those models should be used before demanding others to change their climate at the very least.

I don't intend to get a PhD at the moment, so that's not relevant, as you like to say.

Whether you intend to get a phd isn't actually relevant to what I said. My point is you probably know a lot about climate but in the end I just don't have confidence you can be sure there won't be some big errors in the climate models.

This is a lot like the economic/population discussion where people used Earthly guidelines to determine their facts because they aren't actual economists and then claiming "unless you're an economist you can't prove me wrong", which is really not ideal and we can work around that as a group. We don't have to be experts, and we don't have to make everything be magical, we can approximate realism.

Now you're dwelling back to other issues. The issue with magic I've already responded to, if you like to call my climate magic I'll call your humans magic. I'm perfectly aware you're trying too approximate realism but as I already pointed out, that has serious consequences for all of our history work if some of the approximations turned out to be wrong later and it all has to be changed.

So because you, personally, don't care about it, means we should change the way the project is run as a collaborative entity? If it's outside your interest, then you wouldn't care that much about Blaland's climate. Yes, you can be concerned about the climate in your land without being interested in the climate simulation, I get that.

What?? I'm basically saying I don't care, mostly because I'm so fed up with all the climate obsessions, so you can basically do whatever you want outside Blaist Blaland. How is me basically granting you the freedom to do whatever you like with the climate outside my borders changing the way the project is run? This was a response to your comments about the world outside Blaist Blaland, not Blaland itself. Would you prefer if I bothered to care about it and demanded certain climate for the rest of the world, or said I demand that you take into account my climate in your simulation? It seems like you will be upset no matter what I say.

I have been open to moving your land, though no one has taken any initiative to attempt this (I figured you or Fiah might try this, because it's your land, and Fiah is geology man), brushing it off as implausible, so maybe I'll try it later. A savanna solution might work for some regions of Blaland. 5 belts is quite improbable in my opinion.

I'm still open to moving it and I'll also consider redrawing the borders, if people will stop the mockery and stop making demands and threats. I just think the world will become more boring if it becomes another isolated island civilization and I'm curious what would happen around the borders with the other countries. But proposals to move it and showing the result of the climate sim are welcome. However if I move it and it turns out the climate sim had some errors I really don't think you can expect me to redo a lot of things again.

Alright this is just a suggestion but what if instead of
"Blaland is ALL desert" and "Blaland is ALL wet
We had like a big river system thing, formed from rain from Blagua. This way Blaland remains a desert but still has a lot of water to sustain its large population, like a bigger Egypt. And the central sea/lake thing in Blaland would probably be like the centre of Blaland in everything.

This seems like an interesting idea. But the look of the landscape is rather important to me. I just find deserts very bland and want something more green as a setting for most of the country.

[Darvince]

This seems like an interesting idea. But the look of the landscape is rather important to me. I just find deserts very bland and want something more green as a setting for most of the country.

Deserts are very much not boring or bland places to be or travel through.

[Bla]

Deserts are very much not boring or bland places to be or travel through.

That's subjective. I wouldn't want most of that for my country.

[Darvince]

Of course it's subjective, it's whether or not you find something beautiful. I'm saying that deserts are not very bland (which seems to imply that they are all the same), as those images showcase the diversity and possible beauty of desert landscapes. If you went for realism with the landscape, the last image would be what much of Blaland would look like, with more development on top of it.



This one in particular, would be what many areas of Blaland, especially along the rivers and near the lakes, would potentially look like. Not counting any oases that would arise due to the underground geology.

[Bla]

Deserts just don't fit with my plans and the kind of landscape I'd like. There's no reason to turn this into a discussion about whether deserts are beautiful/desireable/whatever or not.

[atomic7732]

None of what I said is based on the fundamental laws of physics being actually different. Climate depends on thermodynamics which are laws based on the fact that there are a lot of molecules and therefore applying statistical arguments. On the other hand you use choice when you choose this chain of events where the atmospheric composition over billions of years, along with the continent movements and interactions with all the other species, turn out to just happen to give rise to humans here with all their footprints of their Earthly evolutionary history. If you can choose something like that you can also choose molecular motions that don't at all tend to maximize entropy. In either case you just choose a setting that happens to be so extraordinarily unlikely it's implausible.

Uhhh... no... ? As much as I believe and apply determinism to things, that isn't how that would work. It doesn't work on the same scale. Just because a small change in initial state will effect the weather 2 days, 500 years, etc down the line, doesn't mean it would cause a large area to, over time, accumulate a lot more rain. It would instead average out to be the optimal heat exchange for the existing planet, maybe allowing a desert a lot of rain for... a week or a month. But not enough to actually affect the climate of a location.

The atmosphere doesn't "evolve" like life does, branching out and killing off the bad branches, where it takes generations to take in input like, something being a bad idea actually killing individuals off or some trait being actually beneficial. The atmosphere constantly gets input and is "molded" from the most new parameters (location and temperature and moisture of land and other parcels of air and rotation), which generally stay the same or similar, and reacts extremely quickly to these changing factors, on the order of hours, days, and for climate maybe years or sometimes a few decades.

To demonstrate: you could replace the Earth's atmosphere with an atmosphere with no motion whatsoever, relative to say... the solar system. The Earth's spin and friction between the atmosphere would quickly (I'd say in about two or three days) get the atmospheric motion up to 70 or 80% of its 4-billion-year-old speed on Earth right now. Very rapidly, on the order of hours, things would begin to spin, even before the atmosphere looks like it's going the right speed, due to orography and the Coriolis effect. Surface temperatures would, on the order of hours as well, begin to form thunderstorms and the first low pressure systems... In exactly the same places they would on Earth normally. In a few years, no statistics could determine the difference between a "real" Earth atmosphere and a randomly generated initial state atmosphere (with a similar composition and mass) within realistic parameters. Of course, lows and highs and rainfall would be in different locations (at the same time as a different initial state), but they would all tend toward the same characteristics - their sum - the climate.

In this way, a Universalian atmosphere would very quickly adapt, no matter how it started, to the optimal Universalian atmosphere for the same surface characteristics (elevation, moisture, vegetation, etc). This would mean that past continental factors (which we do not have) really do not have that much effect on the general circulation of Universalis as opposed to say, the evolution of humans. So in fact, the climate of Universalis is more certain, and has less room for "magic" than humans. The speed of rotation and size of the planet already determine that there are three cells per hemisphere and would abide by the general characteristics of an atmosphere with three cells for a given rotational period. Done and done.

[Darvince]

maybe allowing a desert a lot of rain for... a week or a month.

december 10-24 1967 never forget

** THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT POST DO NOT REPLY TO IT AS SUCH **

[Bla]

Uhhh... no... ? As much as I believe and apply determinism to things, that isn't how that would work. It doesn't work on the same scale. Just because a small change in initial state will effect the weather 2 days, 500 years, etc down the line, doesn't mean it would cause a large area to, over time, accumulate a lot more rain. It would instead average out to be the optimal heat exchange for the existing planet, maybe allowing a desert a lot of rain for... a week or a month. But not enough to actually affect the climate of a location. [...]

You missed the point completely. This has zero to do with a small change in initial state. All the details about climate you're describing are really irrelevant here, as they're applications of thermodynamics which use statistical arguments. It assumes the molecules behave the way that's the most probable and throw away a lot of information to describe it in terms of temperature, pressure, etc., but the molecules don't do that perfectly. And if you can cherry pick an extraordinarily unlikely evolutionary situation, you can do the same for molecules. "Done and done."
What are you bringing up determinism here by the way?

[atomic7732]

basically what you're telling me is, you can pick a certain initial state (just one, here's the determinism) - which would allow for a continual sustained rain over blaland which completely disregards the actual properties of universalis and general atmospheric dynamics. that's basically life. life in the atmosphere that can sustain itself. like a tropical cyclone is a closed cell of low pressure that can sustain itself given the right input and keep itself from spinning down. except over blaland. in an area tending toward the formation of high pressure systems. since it's a big blob of land. at around 20-30 deg S. and that's how thermodynamics tends to work in an atmosphere.

k

[vh]

i think he's saying there exists a initial state where, if you run the equations, weather in blaland will be very anomalous. there's nothing wrong with that. it's not about how themo tends to run -- it's about how it runs in one particular instance

[Bla]

basically what you're telling me is, you can pick a certain initial state (just one, here's the determinism) - which would allow for a continual sustained rain over blaland

No - no - no...... Just no, I never said that.
For example thermodynamics says if you put two separate gases together, they tend to mix and gain the same temperature, because a well-mixed state with a uniform temperature is far more probable than them staying separate with different temperatures, there are many more possible uniform, mixed states than unmixed states, but the laws of physics don't fundamentally prevent them from staying separate, it's just very unlikely. The same goes for water molecules over Blaist Blaland.

[Darvince]

yes in 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ogre0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003% of runs that will be true - for maybe a year or so.

[atomic7732]

that actually helps to explain your point but-

universalis is not a closed system, so there's this thing called advection that is caused by insolation - which causes parcels of air to move and circulate. the circulation of your non-diffusing water-saturated parcel is dictated by the entire planet's circulation flow which is not beneficial to having it sit above blaland indefinitely

[vh]

the universe of universalis is a closed system though so you can still pick an initial state which works