Global Warming

[atomic7732]

my $i=1;
for ($i = 1, , $i = 0){
What Bla said
}

[echo17]

Alright it's been awhile since I've been back to Mt Rainier (a large volcano here in the Pacific Northwest) but there was a sign at the base camp showing the level of recent glaciation on a year by year basis.  2003 had significantly more ice than the years prior does this prove man made global warming is a hoax no, the geologic record of the earth does, For example during the Jurassic period through rock samples and probably carbon dating they've been able to determine that the CO2 count was at least 10-20x the amount that is in the atmosphere today, part of that addition was an upsurge of volcanic activity.

Another example is the medieval warm period which Bla I've noticed your graph does touch on but you haven't spoken about at all it was warm enough then for the British to grow grapes and make their own wine, before that North Africa was the bread box for the Roman Empire, in fact since the Jurassic period the CO2 count continues to decline.

Another major contributor to "green house gasses" is Volcanic activity the volcano in Iceland that erupted last year dwarfed most emissions on a man made level.  Mt Penatubo in Africa erupting in 91 or 92 produced more of these green house gasses than mankind has been able to since the start of the industrial revolution.

Another thing to point out is that for much of earths geologic history the poles were not frozen over nor is it common for them to be (this is from a geologic standpoint).

[Bla]

Alright it's been awhile since I've been back to Mt Rainier (a large volcano here in the Pacific Northwest) but there was a sign at the base camp showing the level of recent glaciation on a year by year basis.  2003 had significantly more ice than the years prior does this prove man made global warming is a hoax no, the geologic record of the earth does, For example during the Jurassic period through rock samples and probably carbon dating they've been able to determine that the CO2 count was at least 10-20x the amount that is in the atmosphere today, part of that addition was an upsurge of volcanic activity.

The CO₂ composition during the Jurassic period is, according to the models in this graph at least, estimated to be about 1950 ppm during the Jurassic period, which is 5 times the current level of 390 ppm. You must consider the fact that the current warming is not happening in a geological timescale. Of course there have been far bigger variations in the climate on Earth in the past, but the changes happened over much longer timescales, and life adapted to them. What happens now is, as you can see on both graphs I showed, a very rapid change in the mean temperature compared to the past, which I highly doubt we can just blame on the volcanos, the 11 year solar cycle or other things.
I don't know why the glaciation at Mt Rainier is relevant, because we cannot measure the climate of Earth from a single case. Then you can just cherry pick the cases supporting you. We need to look at much larger scales. From NASA:
"The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets have decreased in mass. Data from NASA's Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment show Greenland lost 150 to 250 cubic kilometers (36 to 60 cubic miles) of ice per year between 2002 and 2006, while Antarctica lost about 152 cubic kilometers (36 cubic miles) of ice between 2002 and 2005."
This graph also clearly shows that glaciars are statistically retreating globally:

Source: http://nsidc.org/sotc/glacier_balance.html
I hope we can all agree beyond any doubt that the world is warming, and that this is having some serious consequences, and get on to discuss why this is happening.

Another example is the medieval warm period which Bla I've noticed your graph does touch on but you haven't spoken about at all it was warm enough then for the British to grow grapes and make their own wine, before that North Africa was the bread box for the Roman Empire, in fact since the Jurassic period the CO2 count continues to decline.

Here's a graph of the estimated temperature during the Medieval Warm Period. It isn't that impressive compared to the modern change in temperature at all.

Another major contributor to "green house gasses" is Volcanic activity the volcano in Iceland that erupted last year dwarfed most emissions on a man made level.  Mt Penatubo in Africa erupting in 91 or 92 produced more of these green house gasses than mankind has been able to since the start of the industrial revolution.

According to this report, the approximate production of carbondioxide by the volcano was about 15 kilotonnes pr. day (since the SO₂ production was about 3% of the emissions, CO₂ was 15% and the SO₂ emission was about 3000 tonnes pr. day). However, the mass of the 390 ppm CO₂ in the atmosphere is about 3160 gigatonnes. The increase in carbondioxide is about 35% since the industrial age began, which is an increase of about 1100 gigatonnes (even after the photosynthesis, I haven't been able to find any number of how much carbonxide is emitted by human industry/transport/etc., but that would be interesting to know). The emission of volcanos pr. year is about 130 to 230 megatonnes. In the worst case, this is 69 gigatonnes over 300 years. So certainly the volcanic emission of carbondioxide is not dwarfing human production, but is dwarfed by the total increase.

Another thing to point out is that for much of earths geologic history the poles were not frozen over nor is it common for them to be (this is from a geologic standpoint).

This is the same argument as the Jurassic one, that because the temperature has been greater in the past, man made global warming is false. I've dealt with this above.

[phasma_phasmatis]

Say there comes an energy renaissance. What would countries do with all their fossil fuels? They can't just not use the resources they have. Unless they find a practical (cheap) way for coal to be useful and cleaner, countries will continue to burn through their coal, regardless of the impact it may be causing to global warming.

[echo17]

Well I could agree with all of that if it was warming at all, it's actually been cooling in most places, though I do appreciate the fact that you have visual aides and sources that I can at least look at, the problem with any data taken from any source (belief in global warming as man made or natural occurence) is that it can be skewed because we've only had the ability to detect emissions since the 1970's so we only have the last 40 years of factual data to go on for what's in the air.

The sad thing is on this we will both find the common ground of agree to disagree though I will say you are one of the more intelligent proponents of man made global warming so kudo's to you Bla!

[Darvince]

Bla is the polar opposite of people that believe what he does. (aka most people that believe what he does are dumb)

[atomic7732]

echo17, are "most places" in the US? Last year, most months were the hottest on record for every continent but North America. We were below average... So for the rest of the world... It's getting hotter. Global warming, not US/NA Warming.

[Darvince]

What

[Naru523]

Nue is explaining that every developed countries are doing pollution, thus making global warming. Not the United States nor the Americas are doing most of the pollution.

[Bla]

Thanks, echo17.

But if the fact that we've only had a small amount of time to measure the temperature is an argument against global warming, how did you then measure the cooling?

[Dan Dixon]

...though I will say you are one of the more intelligent proponents of man made global warming so kudo's to you Bla!

It's not just Bla. I also accept the consensus of the scientific community that the average rise in temperature of the Earth is directly related to activity of humans:

Most climate scientists agree the main cause of the current global warming trend is human expansion of the "greenhouse effect" -- warming that results when the atmosphere traps heat radiating from Earth toward space.

Source: http://climate.nasa.gov/causes/

Those that deny human caused climate change or think it's all a hoax often do so because of an unwillingness to accept the sad reality that we are damaging our home. It's easier to stay the course than change humanity's behavior to correct the damage. Attachment to political ideology and claims made by iron-age mythology also contribute to the denial.

I agree that the reality of climate change is upsetting and it's much easier to pretend it's not happening, but denying the observed and measured reality is only going to make things worse.

[dhm794]

NASA actually just started a project to investigate climate change more deeply.  I think it's call NPPy.

[jgold98]

I read in a book that the sea levels won't rise due to Icebergs melting, here's your proof: wouldn't low-level places be affected by now and, water would most likely take place of the Ice (which, as you know, changes size and gets bigger when it is frozen) and nothing would happen due to change of mass and shape of the icebergs. Also CO₂ levels were extremely high when Dinosaurs ruled the earth, and they did fine without AC and a space program! So if it is true, (Which I think it isn't because it's just an excuse to scare people, make them spend more money, make the economy better. It's just a business!) how would it affect US, the human race. And for Pete's sake people I know this much about it and I'm in the 8^th grade!

[jgold98]

ALSO: One volcanic eruption releases twice as much greenhouse gas that WE have produced in ALL TIME. So again, North America has little volcano's , maybe that's why we aren't warming up!

[Darvince]

Actually there are three very active people that are younger than you. And they posted in this thread.

[atomic7732]

Actually there are three very active people that are younger than you. And they posted in this thread.

This is quite off topic. Depends his age, but if you're trying to include me I may be older. Depends.

I read in a book that the sea levels won't rise due to Icebergs melting, here's your proof: wouldn't low-level places be affected by now and, water would most likely take place of the Ice (which, as you know, changes size and gets bigger when it is frozen) and nothing would happen due to change of mass and shape of the icebergs. Also CO₂ levels were extremely high when Dinosaurs ruled the earth, and they did fine without AC and a space program! So if it is true, (Which I think it isn't because it's just an excuse to scare people, make them spend more money, make the economy better. It's just a business!) how would it affect US, the human race. And for Pete's sake people I know this much about it and I'm in the 8^th grade!

Though yes, most of the icebergs are underwater, think of all the glaciers and ice sheets, and Antarctica (the majority of which is actually on solid land, as opposed to the north pole) above the sea level, when they melt, liquid water has little resistance to gravity, and it just goes to the lowest spot it can find. Usually that's the ocean.

An excuse to get people to spend money? Ha! It's much cheaper to be green! If anything it's killing the economy (Huh? The government is trying to kill itself?). Think of recycling and saving electricity. Recycling makes you money (if it's not a city service) you can turn in cans and get cash! Saving water and electricity also means you pay less money to the city because you use less of their services. Using earth's natural resources to build is nearly free as long as you don't overuse them more than they can be replenished. Planting a tree is priceless, it'll give you oxygen for the rest of your life.Take that government conspiracy!

Bla also explained further up on this page that that CO2 was gradual, not as sharp of an increase we are experiencing now. Adaptation? Evolution? Do any of these things ring a bell? Anyway, dinosaurs are another animal. Another story. You can't compare us to them.

How can you refute the cold hard facts?

[Bla]

@ jgold98 I refuted a lot of the things you wrote there in another post further up... I recommend reading it.

I'm not in the mood to refute stuff right now, sorry. Maybe I'll do it another day.

[atomic7732]

@ jgold98 I refuted a lot of the things you wrote there in another post further up... I recommend reading it.

I'm not in the mood to refute stuff right now, sorry. Maybe I'll do it another day.

I did your job in the post above you.

[jgold98]

Take that government conspiracy!

OBJECTION!!! What about the $40,000 hybrid cars! Not to mention the ones that run off electricity only, electric bills would skyrocket! Also I see about 4-5 smart car's a day IN A SMALL CITY! Thats about $100,000 put into the car dealerships wallet. It's cars, lightbulbs, Solar Panels, government taxes, and lot's more. Al Gore has made A LOT of money on LIES. SANDWICHES OF LIES!!!! Food price is going up because of biofuel, causing riots in other countries. Energy prices are rising because our genius president won't let us drill oil off the coast because of a duck that got killed in an oil spill. OH MY GOD!!! SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!!! CANCEL DUCK SEASON!!! And the worst part is that the poor are being most affected by lies about the earth warming up. And about Glaciers, they would melt toward the bottom a little bit, but a 2 degree rise won't change anything . So this whole global warming myth is just A BUSINESS!!! This is to make people money. I blame all this hype about it on Obama because all he cares about is the environment! You guys can worry about your fancy graphs and charts. By the way, it's a little known fact that 42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot. I believe NASA, but not the people that make this a business. 'Nuff said...

[atomic7732]

I can refute every sentence of that.

Who said you have to buy a hybrid? And this is capitalism, no companies are owned by the government, and thus the government isn't the one getting the money, the car dealerships are. Just like you said, money into the car dealership's wallet. Solar panels generate their own electricity and they pay themselves off in a few years. They generate enough electricity that the electric companies pay YOU for your electricity, and when fossil fuels run out in about 30 - 50 years, you'll be fine, and you'll be one of the few houses on the block that have AC and you're watching TV, and surfing the net. Rising food prices? Just inflation. In fact we are still drilling off the coast, Deepwater Horizons wasn't the only oil platform. A duck. Thousands of fish, dolphins, and other sea animals washed ashore dead is not a duck. A duck is one being. And there's more out there that we can't see that haven't washed up, or are lying on the sea floor. Oil is bad for most animals, it makes bird feathers useless, and can poison other animals too. It collapsed a whole ecosystem in the Gulf of Mexico. It won't recover until long after we're gone. The oil spill in Alaska, if you don't recall, the ecosystem over there is still recovering, and you can still find tarballs on the beaches in the area.

Yeah, 2 degrees isn't much, in a day. Over a course of 100 years, an average 2 degree rise from the normal will begin to melt things that were frozen before. What is your thermostat in your house? Is it at 76? 78? Try turning it up 3 degrees F (2 degrees C, and I rounded down!). Are you getting warm yet?

Blame it on Obama, but the idea of Global Warming began long before he took office, and you should care about the environment. If you don't believe in Global Warming, there are still problems that we are causing to the environment not related to SO2, CO2 or temperatures. We're dumping waste everywhere and using up resources faster than they can be replenished, if they even can!

Charts and graphs are just easy ways to represent data, want raw data? I can find some for you!

By the way, it's a little known fact that there is a such thing called sarcasm. That statistic was probably made up on the spot too. And if you believe NASA, they know Global Warming is there too. NASA is a government agency, and most of the data comes from a good 'ol place called the NOAA. They're a government agency too.

And don't say that you just don't believe Global Warming, you can't pick out things you don't belive and keep the ones you do. You believe NASA or you don't. We went to the moon, or we didn't. Why would they lie on only one thing and tell you the facts on the rest? Think about that for a while.

[atomic7732]

Oh and if you ever want to believe global warming, and you don't want to admit it. Just use the excuse that you can save money.

[Darvince]

Yeah, 2 degrees isn't much, in a day. Over a course of 100 years, an average 2 degree rise from the normal will begin to melt things that were frozen before. What is your thermostat in your house? Is it at 76? 78? Try turning it up 3 degrees F (2 degrees C, and I rounded down!). Are you getting warm yet?

I turned it up to 81 from 78 and my sister came over and turned it down after half an hour.

[atomic7732]

lol Darv you tried it... hahahah

[jgold98]

Oh, we weren't supposed to try it....

[atomic7732]

Oh, we weren't supposed to try it....

No, it was just meant for you, that's why it was funny when he tried it.

[Dan Dixon]

I'll point you again to this site (as did NeutronStar):
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
For example: Sea level has risen by 17 cm (6.7 inches) over the last 100 years and it continues to do so.

Just because some people are immorally exploiting global climate change to try and make money doesn't mean that it's a myth. The evidence that global climate change is a reality is overwhelming.

A two degree rise in average temperature will be very significant. I can understand why you don't want to believe that we (humans) are destroying our home; it's really depressing. And given the control that corporations have over our political leaders, it's unlikely that we'll begin making the changes necessary to reverse the damage any time soon.

Energy prices are rising because our genius president won't let us drill oil off the coast because of a duck that got killed in an oil spill.

The oil spill in the gulf was the largest accidental marine oil spill in history and it killed many thousands of animals (and likely hundreds of thousands more that we haven't counted). These companies clearly value profit over people, safety, and the protection of our planet. There are good reasons to not allow them to drill (but we are letting them anyway).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill

I blame all this hype about it on Obama because all he cares about is the environment!

It's too bad that's not true for our planet would be in much better shape.

[Nero]

I wouldn't despite the evidence that Planet is heating but i personally think that the human impact is smaller then is been made out. For instance its believed that Mars is also going through a period of Global Warming and last time i checked there is no major industry on the red Planet

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/17977/Mars_Is_Warming_NASA_Scientists_Report.html

[atomic7732]

I wouldn't despite the evidence that Planet is heating but i personally think that the human impact is smaller then is been made out. For instance its believed that Mars is also going through a period of Global Warming and last time i checked there is no major industry on the red Planet

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/17977/Mars_Is_Warming_NASA_Scientists_Report.html

Maybe it is, but how much? And it's got a thin atmosphere too, and thus, needs less to warm it in the same amount of time. So technically, that's not relevant, imo.

[Nero]

so you claim despite the increase in irradiance from the sun, despite the increase in heat, energy and other stuff the sun is pushing out into space it has a minimal affect on the Earths temperature. Check out the following link, there is an increase in the temperature on other planets too including the dwarf planet Pluto,an increase in the temperature on Jupiter on also Triton.

http://seoblackhat.com/2007/03/04/global-warming-on-mars-pluto-triton-and-jupiter/

Also to simply put the increase in temperature on Mars down to its thin atmosphere is impractical. If the heat from the Sun heats the surface of Mars because of a thin atmosphere then that same atmosphere should allow heat to bounce back into space, especially in the absence of greenhouse gases


The theory on global warming been caused by The Solar Constant isn't as easy to dismiss as people think

[Nero]

I'll point you again to this site (as did NeutronStar):
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
For example: Sea level has risen by 17 cm (6.7 inches) over the last 100 years and it continues to do so.

Just because some people are immorally exploiting global climate change to try and make money doesn't mean that it's a myth. The evidence that global climate change is a reality is overwhelming.

A two degree rise in average temperature will be very significant. I can understand why you don't want to believe that we (humans) are destroying our home; it's really depressing. And given the control that corporations have over our political leaders, it's unlikely that we'll begin making the changes necessary to reverse the damage any time soon.

Energy prices are rising because our genius president won't let us drill oil off the coast because of a duck that got killed in an oil spill.

The oil spill in the gulf was the largest accidental marine oil spill in history and it killed many thousands of animals (and likely hundreds of thousands more that we haven't counted). These companies clearly value profit over people, safety, and the protection of our planet. There are good reasons to not allow them to drill (but we are letting them anyway).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill

I blame all this hype about it on Obama because all he cares about is the environment!

It's too bad that's not true for our planet would be in much better shape.

As for a decline in record low temperatures, that maybe so far the US but lets have a quick look at the last 3 winters in Britain ( which by the way we were told would now be milder then before thanks for GW  and they have been systematically colder, which we are now been told is due to global warming  )

UK Winter 2008 - 2009 http://www.liverpoolecho.co.UK/liverpool-news/uk-world-news/2009/01/06/big-freeze-10-below-zero-forecast-100252-22615188/

UK winter 2009-2010 http://www.guardian.co.UK/UK/2010/mar/02/british-winter-coldest-30-years

UK Winter 2010-2011 (This winter was particularly interesting considering an new low temperature of -18.5c was recorded in N.Ireland. I personally recorded a midday temperature of -10c on the 21st December 2010. This news article all though marked 2010 is still the last winter it just it was posted in November, considering our harsh winter started early) http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/2010/11/records-tumble-as-winter-tight.shtml?postid=103660664