Staggering...

[phinehas]

...simply staggering.  Wonder what the numbers look like elsewhere.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/86m-full-time-private-sector-workers-sustain-148m-benefit-takers

[Darvince]

stop making new threads

[blotz]

he's going for top topic starter and most active month

[vh]

i guess robots will take over and no one will have to work then. a few short years before 86 million becomes 0.

[phinehas]

stop making new threads

How did all these other topics get on here then if nobody made new threads?  Is there some rule?  The forum is Everything Else.  If you want be banned and not posting anything, take it up with Dan.

[blotz]

you are making them to FAST. >2/d is a lot

[phinehas]

i guess robots will take over and no one will have to work then. a few short years before 86 million becomes 0.

That's a huge jump form the reality of the problem this article highlights about the numbers.  It's a serious problem.

[vh]

raise minimum wage to $20

[phinehas]

Which simply raises the cost of goods and services.  Plus with that logic, why just $20, make it $100.  Same reason a $100 doesn't work is the same reason for $20.  Real numbers, not arbitrary dictates create and grow a real economy, not an illusion.

[vh]

i see the problem.

cap the maximum wage at twice the minimum wage, so the richest CEO's can't be paid too much more than laborers.

[phinehas]

That changes nothing with the costs of goods and services.  Also, you reduce the incentive to become something that traditionally gives the person a better living.  Generally speaking, that's why people who make the effort and investment to become an engineer is to make proportionately more money than a person who works at a fast food chain serving hamburgers.

[vh]

That changes nothing with the costs of goods and services.  Also, you reduce the incentive to become something that traditionally gives the person a better living.  Generally speaking, that's why people who make the effort and investment to become an engineer is to make proportionately more money than a person who works at a fast food chain serving hamburgers.

it does change things because then less of the wealth that goes to the rich is spread out to those who have lower income jobs which means 90 million can support 200 million or whatever with no trouble.

also the incentive is still there, twice the amount of money is a significant amount. not everyone can be an engineer because we don't have robots to operate fast food chains yet.

[atomic7732]

Which simply raises the cost of goods and services.  Plus with that logic, why just $20, make it $100.  Same reason a $100 doesn't work is the same reason for $20.  Real numbers, not arbitrary dictates create and grow a real economy, not an illusion.

By that logic, one could reduce inflation by simply lowering minimum wage to $1 or maybe 50 cents. Why doesn't this happen? More opportunity to make money by selling products at the same price. Raising minimum wage doesnt work because of human greed to keep raking in profits at the same quantity.

That changes nothing with the costs of goods and services.  Also, you reduce the incentive to become something that traditionally gives the person a better living.  Generally speaking, that's why people who make the effort and investment to become an engineer is to make proportionately more money than a person who works at a fast food chain serving hamburgers.

Not everyone can be an engineer, some dont have the interest, some the capability, and the most significant, there's not that high of a demand. We would end up with a) too many engineers and not enough work and b) too many engineers and not enough people doing non-engineer work.

the problem is distribution of work and work required to be done in relation to how much doing that work is considered 'worth' in current society.

[phinehas]

it does change things because then less of the wealth that goes to the rich

The vast majority of wealthy people don't hoard money under their mattress, they invest money, which is used by other businesses and they purchase goods and services from others.

Artificially adjusting wages is just as bad as artificially capping prices.

[atomic7732]

wealthy people invest in other wealthy people sir so both of them can get more money from non-wealthy people

it's like hoarding money under their mattress but worse

[vh]

The vast majority of wealthy people don't hoard money under their mattress, they invest money, which is used by other businesses

that doesn't matter because it doesn't help the 86 million people and the other 200 million mentioned in the article.

and they purchase goods and services from others.

no billionaire spends a sizable portion of their assets on a trillion lolipops or something. they spend nothing.

Artificially adjusting wages is just as bad as artificially capping prices.

where did you get that from

[phinehas]

that doesn't matter because it doesn't help the 86 million people and the other 200 million mentioned in the article.

Of course it does.  Business is jobs and economic growth.  Real jobs, real growth..not government created jobs by a government that doesn't need to operate in the confines of reality, like a private business does.

no billionaire spends a sizable portion of their assets on a trillion lolipops or something. they spend nothing.

I said goods and services, that isn't exclusive to lollipops, that's just silly.  Objective reality...even subjective reality can not deny that rich people purchase homes, cars, clothes, food, etc.

where did you get that from

Experience.  Also common sense would be enough for anyone that didn't have experience.  If I am a farmer and the government takes over my business and tells me I can no longer charge market value for my goods but caps it to a lower or current amount...I won't be a farmer for long because the costs will increase, my profits will diminish, disappear or stagnate at best.

Again, the vast majority of people tend to work in order to not simply survive day to day but to increase their wealth for down times, unexpected life events and to have a more enjoyable life.

If humanity's ancestors simply were satisfied with day to day survival, you would not have this internet to communicate through or much of anything else above simple tools to hunt and gather food.

[vh]

Of course it does.  Business is jobs and economic growth.  Real jobs, real growth..not government created jobs by a government that doesn't need to operate in the confines of reality, like a private business does.

just because the government did it doesn't mean it isn't real. everything is in the confines of reality.

I said goods and services, that isn't exclusive to lollipops, that's just silly.  Objective reality...even subjective reality can not deny that rich people purchase homes, cars, clothes, food, etc.

those items are worth nothing compared to how much they have.

If I am a farmer and the government takes over my business and tells me I can no longer charge market value for my goods but caps it to a lower or current amount...I won't be a farmer for long because the costs will increase, my profits will diminish, disappear or stagnate at best.

this is about wages, not product prices. if your profits disappear, stop paying the ceo's so much. my proposal was to redistribute income, so it's not as if the money dissappeared and no one has enough anymore.

Again, the vast majority of people tend to work in order to not simply survive day to day but to increase their wealth for down times, unexpected life events and to have a more enjoyable life.

ok...

If humanity's ancestors simply were satisfied with day to day survival, you would not have this internet to communicate through or much of anything else above simple tools to hunt and gather food.

the incentive to innovate is still there without the money. right now you work to better yourself compared to others. with capped wages, you would work to better humanity.

[Dan Dixon]

This article is just additional fuel for the hatred of the poor and weak.

America Has A 'Profound Hatred Of The Weak And The Poor' - Matt Taibbi

"Any American understands that there's this tremendous pressure to succeed and we think about people, for instance, who are on the welfare system and we think of them without compassion," ... "We think of them as unsympathetic characters because they're somehow taking from us and, meanwhile, there's this incredible adulation and worship for people who make money." Source

[phinehas]

just because the government did it doesn't mean it isn't real. everything is in the confines of reality.

Re-read what I actually wrote.

those items are worth nothing compared to how much they have.

Tell that to all the people who make a living off of what the Rich spend and invest in.  You are simply wrong.

this is about wages, not product prices. if your profits disappear, stop paying the ceo's so much. my proposal was to redistribute income, so it's not as if the money dissappeared and no one has enough anymore.

Again you don't understand the FACT that businesses are not created by poor people.  Artificially leveling the playing field won't result in everyone being wealthy enough to start a business and hire employees.  Your proposal however to redistribute wealth can start with the tax return you are associated with..simply mark the checkbox and give the government more money, that way your wealth can be taken from you and given to somebody else that has less.  Nothing stopping you or Warren Buffet from giving more.

ok...

It's obvious that you just don't have the life experience to understand this but you will when you get older, I just don't see how anyone could not.

the incentive to innovate is still there without the money. right now you work to better yourself compared to others. with capped wages, you would work to better humanity.

Again, your experience is lacking.  That's simply not reality.  You see it on Star Trek, but life isn't a Sci-Fi tv show.

[phinehas]

This article is just additional fuel for the hatred of the poor and weak.

America Has A 'Profound Hatred Of The Weak And The Poor' - Matt Taibbi

"Any American understands that there's this tremendous pressure to succeed and we think about people, for instance, who are on the welfare system and we think of them without compassion," ... "We think of them as unsympathetic characters because they're somehow taking from us and, meanwhile, there's this incredible adulation and worship for people who make money." Source

As far as the people that make money...there should be, their efforts provide jobs.  Thank you Dan for working hard in order to be in the position to Hire all those other developers.  That deserves kudos, not resentment.

As far as poor people.  Yes, there are people that don't get wide spread compassion by others.  The problem with Government distributing tax payer compassion versus local entities closer to the source of people, is that there is fraud and there are people that have been on welfare for generations.  Mainly due to Democratic policies but also due to their own poor life decisions.  These people need to learn how to manage their lives and fish, versus being given fish with no change.  That's a reason why the War on Poverty will be never ending and has been a big failure.

Saying all of that...Americans are the most generous people on the planet when it comes to helping others within the US and out.  That's a fact and has been for decades if not from the founding.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/24/america-philanthropy-income-oped-cx_ee_1226eaves.html
I am sure there are numerous other sources that highlight this fact.