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Hi, i thought we could start something; a simulation of climate change, kind of, and how it's affected an economical goal
You start with a nation, (which you can name, or i'll just use your forum username). The nation has an wealth of 1000 units. each nation emits a pollution amount of 1 unit per 10 wealth. so a nation with 1000 wealth units will emit 100 pollution (per turn). Pollution will stay in the air for an amount of time before going away (10 turns). You can reduce this pollution by spending your wealth on it. Spending X wealth units will reduce your pollution emissions by (X^0.8)/2. In addition, you may extract pollution in the atmosphere at a cost of X/10. At the end of a turn, wealth is increased by 20% + amount you spent on reducing pollution/researching. For example, a nation with 10000 wealth, and spends 2000 on reducing pollution, and 1000 on researching, will have 7000*1.2+3000=11400
Nations can freely gift resources and stuff. You might even want to 'offset your pollution' by giving money to another nation under the agreement that they will use it to reduce pollution. However, whether they use the money appropriately is up to them. Nations can also be embargoed to try to get them to change their policies. Being embargoed will cause you to lose 4% of your wealth, but if you embargo someone, you will lose 4% of your own wealth.
If too much pollution is released, the world is doomed, and everyone dies. the game ends. The amount of pollution released is unknown, but nations can find out by spending research money which will be contributed to a research pool. A total of 10000 wealth on money will result in an answer that is within 50% of the real value. 20000 total wealth will show within 25%. 30000 wealth will show 10%. 40000 wealth will show 5%. 50000 wealth will show 1%. 60000 wealth will show the exact amount. I won't know the real amount either, as it will be generated with a random script and i won't look before the amount is revealed to everyone.
Each game will last 30 turns, unless this'll need to be changed for any reason.
Winning/Losing:
If the world survives all the turns, the person with the highest economy wins.
If the world doesn't survive all the turns, the person who is responsible for the most pollution loses, and everyone else neither wins or loses.
In a turn, you should post how much wealth you spend on pollution reduction, and in which way you reduce emissions (emissions, atmosphere, or offsets.) You can also post if you want to embargo or cancel embargo, or how much wealth you will be spending on research.
If you are inactive for 4 days after the turn has started, your wealth will start declining by 10% per turn, (but you will still emit pollution).
Unless otherwise noted, you will spend the same percentage on pollution reduction and research as previous turn.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
If you want to join, just post, and the game will start soon.
Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqXNpALRcpv9dGhoOUNDOGpXUFU1UUFFZ1RvZGo2dmc#gid=0)
there are some cells on the right that show total pollution and total research.
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so basically the poorer you are the better the environment is?
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yes, because it costs money to be install carbon filters, or shutdown coal plants and set up nuclear ones. and fossil fuels are cheaper -- until we run out, but by then the world will be doomed anyways
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kolok
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*Seraj joined the game
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* Bagua joined the gayme
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* Kolokoslavia joined the game
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* Rakkis joined the game
I might change the name, maybe not.
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spreadsheetadded.gdocs
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no blue
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yes, because it costs money to be install carbon filters, or shutdown coal plants and set up nuclear ones. and fossil fuels are cheaper -- until we run out, but by then the world will be doomed anyways
and the hydroelectric power? we have tons of them here on Brazil, and they are not polluters.
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yes, but it cost money to build and maintain them.
also, rules have been changed so that the formula for removing pollution from the atmosphere and also the embargo has been made to hurt your own economy as well as the person you're embargoing.
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anyway, the pollution limit has been determined and i wrote a script to figure out if the worlds ended or not, even without needing to know myself, what the pollution threshold is.
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yes, but it cost money to build and maintain them.
This applies to fossil fuel plants as well. The building costs of hydroelectricity are high, but maintainance is nothing compared to fossil fuel plants, plus their "fuel" (water) doesn't cost anything, as opposed to coal, oil and natural gas.
Hydroelectricity is more efficient than fossil fuels, actually it is the most efficient power source and can reach 90% efficiency,1 and the electricity they generate is very cheap, at 0.03 to 0.05 USD pr. kWh 2 (which is cheaper than most fossil fuels, in some cases even coal). With that said they can damage the local environment and river life.
1: http://www.usbr.gov/power/edu/pamphlet.pdf (http://www.usbr.gov/power/edu/pamphlet.pdf) (page 2)
2: http://www.worldwatch.org/node/9527 (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/9527)
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possibly true, but it seems that keeping coal plants in operation is less expensive? why else do we (meaning the u.s.) still have them running?
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Keeping them in operation is less expensive compared to what? Over what amount of time?
Well, not all countries have water sources which can be used for hydroelectricity. Idk how much capacity USA has left here. Plus as I said hydroelectricity also has some impacts on the local environments.
I think the question "why else does USA still have coal power plants running, if they're cheaper in operation than hydroelectricity?" is an over-simplification, because the cheapest solution isn't automatically the solution our society chooses, not that it's even the ideal solution in all cases. In a capitalist economy, large established industries like coal power, will do a lot to maintain their dominating position, for example through lobbying. In return they can be favored by legislation, for example by subsidies:
The federal government provided substantially larger subsidies to fossil fuels than to
renewables. Subsidies to fossil fuels—a mature, developed industry that has enjoyed
government support for many years—totaled approximately $72 billion over the study
period, representing a direct cost to taxpayers.
http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf (http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf) (page 3)
These industries don't look from the perspective of the entire society or humanity, only from their own, narrow viewpoint, what can benefit themselves the most.
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I see. For this game I'll pretend the coal companys and the governments point of view is the same -- it simplifies things.
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game starts now i guess, i'll calculate the next turn as soon as everyone goes.
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Okay, I'll have Rakkis use 250 in research and 250 in pollution reduction.
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Seraj - 250 on research 300 on pollution reduction
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666 on research and 333 on pollution reduction
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you're included -- i haven't had tiem to update spreadsheet.
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just to clear things up btw, you don't have to spend all your wealth each turn. the amount you don't spend increases, so you have more next.
anyway, i spend 50 on pollution reduction.
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just to clear things up btw, you don't have to spend all your wealth each turn. the amount you don't spend increases, so you have more next.
I'm going to tweak up the amount of wealth needed for pollution reduction.
the minimum amount of pollution needed to cause the world's end is 20000 and probably it is a bit higher (i don't know how much myself), so we can all make 200 pollution per turn with no problems at all.
yeah, and reply if you decide to change your move or not change so i know you've seen this please.
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I changed mine back to what I had originally posted, if you didn't see the change back.
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feexd
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total pollution is now 295. just waiting for darvince now.
also, maybe it would be a good idea to lower the growth rate and the pollution threshold to speed the game up a bit. (right now we will have to wait a while before the exponential growth makes us need to avoid polluting as much.) So if no one has any objections i'll change that.
spredsheet has updayyt.
the amount of wealth needed to remove pollution from the atmosphere has been doubled, so that it's more effective to reduce emitted pollution up until 3000+
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/me confirms because kipoo
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updated, everyone has 4 days to go. you can see your wealth in the spreadsheet.
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Not bad....
I'll do the same as before, 250 pollution reduction and 250 research.
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300 pollution
500 research
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inb4 the world ends because fiha is being a greedy asshole
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400/300
res/red
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100 on pollution reduction
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updated, new turn
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1000 research.
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666 research 373 pollution
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i miscalculated darv's economy by one, change turn [y/n]?
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i miscalculated darv's economy by one, change turn [y/n]?
If you mean you miscalculated by one digit, then go ahead and fix turn. Still, miscalculations should be fixed for this type of game anyway, right?
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yes.
666 research
333 pollution
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i miscalculated darv's economy by one, change turn [y/n]?
If you mean you miscalculated by one digit, then go ahead and fix turn. Still, miscalculations should be fixed for this type of game anyway, right?
i miscalculated by 1
and it was fixes
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bunpie for fiah
i sped 100 ob pollution redicee
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i added a new thingy on inactivity, and bump again.
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ogawd
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i don't spend nothing what.
i'll just take that to mean 0.
oh, and nue has to go.
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update inactivity rules
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new turn. i counted nue as inactive but if he goes now i'll change last turn.
total pollution is at 1240, and total research is at 4569
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Eep, pollution almost doubled for Rakkis.
500 research and 250 pollution reduction.
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700 res for last turn
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ok nue ( yu can go dis turn two)
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600/400
res/red
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666 red
333 res
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100 on pollution reducting, just waiting for fiah now.
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holyshit.
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new turn up.
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950 research/50 reduction
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-16 pollution? Is that even supposed to happen?
Anyways, 600 research and 600 pullution reduction.
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700res/400red
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-16 pollution? Is that even supposed to happen?
Anyways, 600 research and 600 pullution reduction.
I guess he extracted pollution from the enviroment.
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200 on reduction.
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new turn up
fiah had a negative amount of pollution last turn because he reduced his emissions to zero and had to start extracting pollution from the atmosphere.
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1400 pollution reduction.
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1/0 res/red
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800/400
res/red
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400 on reduction
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new turn.
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642 reduction, 149 research
also kick naru if he doesn't go this turn
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naru? he hasn't been playing
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no kick naru from the game beacuse he isn't playing
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he didn't even join the game!
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then who owns kolokslavia
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me
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Do nothing, in an attempt to boost the wealth.
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me
i thought you were researching
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if yu read my posts i've only every reduced.
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nue's turn
i spend 800 on reduction
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500res/500red
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new turn up
also, start a cumulative research column? [y/n]
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692 red, 138 res
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♡
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♡♡
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♡k irij♡n?
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k♡l♡k
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k♡l♡k
I see three lines is everyone else seeing hearts? I was using it as a character for a random language.
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they're hearts.
although how did you know that if you're seeing lines
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╚═╬╝ ├┴┬ is how.
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they're hearts.
although how did you know that if you're seeing lines
in XChat they are hearts, and because I got the character from tumblr and it made sense in context there that way.
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600 reduction.
waiting for atomic and smjjames
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bumb
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800res/250red
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Forgot about the turn. I 'll do 600 research and 250 reduction.
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yay we get to find out to within 50% next turn
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new turn up,
pollution limit is predicted to be 17461 (within 50% of actual value)
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300res/600red
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600 research and 600 reduction.
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pollution limit is predicted to be 17461 (within 50% of actual value)
shits
996 red
149 res
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Didn't Kipz say that the 'end of the world' point was 30,000 pollution? I'll change mine and Kolokslavia needs to get its act together.
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Didn't Kipz say that the 'end of the world' point was 30,000 pollution? I'll change mine and Kolokslavia needs to get its act together.
the end of the world point is unknown to everyone including me. i did say it was over 20,000 (but i halved it later).
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800 reduction
new turn up.
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650 research, 650 reduction.
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spend nothing
inb4 world end
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(darvince's turn is spend nothing?)
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no it is:
1043 reduction
156 research
also does pollution only last 5 turns now?
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10.
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1250 red
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1200 reduction
new turn up
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gj, ppl 1/3 done with game.
dang kip, ninjahed me
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Okay, wait, how come my pollution still increased slightly? The wealth increase erased the progress?
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100res/1000red
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yus@smjjames
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900 reduction, 600 research.
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spend 100 on research and 1500 on reduction.
also embargo aeridani which will start taking effect next turn.
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spend 100 on research and 1500 on reduction.
also embargo aeridani which will start taking effect next turn.
Just maybe I'll go and embargo Kolokslavia and Aeridani -. -.
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maybe = yes/no?
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embargo Aeridani, this is ridiculous
1091 red
164 res
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maybe = yes/no?
Okay, make that a yes....
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new turn up.
edit: wait a sec
also if i agree to keep my emissions below 300 for the next 4 turns, will you agree to unembargo me@ rakkis/aeridani
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ok new turn is up
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wtf i only embargoed fiha
1096 red
548 res
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yes @ darv
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new turn up.
edit: wait a sec
also if i agree to keep my emissions below 300 for the next 4 turns, will you agree to unembargo me@ rakkis/aeridani
That would work.
1000 reduction, 600 research.
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embargo aeridani
400res/750red
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1555 reduction.
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new turn up
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Same as last turn, 1000 reduction, 600 research.
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wtfh is my wealth going down
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wtfh is my wealth going down
Well, for one, you used up all of your wealth that turn and as I found out when I used all the wealth in that turn for pollution reduction, it doesn't increase when you do that. Normally it wouldn't change, but since you did an embargo, there was nowhere for it to go but down.
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the calculation for wealth is this:
W=((Wp-S)*1.2+S)*(1-0.04e)
where Wp is the amount of wealth from last turn, S is the amount of wealth spent on reduction and research, e is the amount of times you are being embargoed+the amount of nations you are embargoing
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bump
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OH OK NUE TURN
*faicpawlm*
1052 red
473 res
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500res/1000red
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1000 reduction, 600 research
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2035 reduction
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new turn
the pollution limit, accurate to 25% of the corect one, is .... 21555
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Research 600, reduction 1200.
I'll unembargo Fiah since it doesn't seem very effective, plus I need some of the wealth growth rate back.
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kolok
unembargo fiha
1000 red
300 res
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Research 600, reduction 1200.
I'll unembargo Fiah since it doesn't seem very effective, plus I need some of the wealth growth rate back.
it is pretty effective; his economy dropped a lot and it stayed stagnant the turn he didn't spend anything at all besides just 100 reduction.
just 4% reduction for both parties.
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...you embargo everyone?
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just a note, this is new:
if someone embargoes you, you can't also embargo them because...
well..
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is that suppose to be
well.
or
well...
or
well....
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unembargo i guess and
500res/1000red
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2505 reduction
unembargo all
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new turn
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0 research, 0 reduction until fiah unembargoes me
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600 research and 1300 reduction.
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fiah's not embargoing anyone.
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ok then
1047 red
314 res
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100res/1050red
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3240 reduction
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new turn up
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1075 red
323 res
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I assume all of the embargos are off.
1400 reduction, 600 research.
How close are we to finding out 100% what the total pollution is? I seem to be doing the majority of the research.
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the research is on the spreadsheetr and how it works is in the op
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asdf
topic was broke
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the research is on the spreadsheetr and how it works is in the op
There's nothing in the total research column.
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it's to the right
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bump for kalassak
3000 reduction
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bump for kalassak
3000 reduction
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nue has 14 hours
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oh sorry uh 300res/1200red
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new turn up
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kipisslo
1097 reduction
330 research
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1500 reduction, 600 research.
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3000 reduction
400 research
fiah and atomic need to go.
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100res/1650red
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ffffffff
embargo all fffffffffff
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Wtf Darv? I'm making good progress on the pollution reduction, that embargo was unnecessary :p
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i was jk
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people don't joke or mention jk in it or else calculations will be crapped up all over.
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fiah was that jk or no.
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lol
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you can't do that.
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new turn up
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what turn is it now
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1127 reduction
169 research
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1700 reduction.
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fiah kalassak go pls
i spend 4000 reduction
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400res/1200red
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new turn up, i unembargo fiahowl and spend 4000 on reduction
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1179 reduction
177 research
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1400red
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fiah and smjjames need to go
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Oh, whoop. 1800 reduction.
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new turn up
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eh
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ohi kevin :)
you need of come moar here (EE) :P
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2000 reduction.
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eh_neezles_eh
1235 reduction
370 research
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4000 reduction
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9001 reduction
9001 research
IT'S OVAH NAINE THAUSAND!
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9001 reduction
9001 research
IT'S OVAH NAINE THAUSAND!
OVER 9000!!!!
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kalassak goooo
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*nue*
same thing.
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kalassak goooo
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bump
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1450 res
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new turn up
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??? everyone went why wait 4 days ???
1281 reduction
192 research
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bump
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650 res
1000 red
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2200 in reduction.
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you should start coming on irc again
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fiahowl turn
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5000 red
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new turn
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2001 res
9 red
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2400 reduction.
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atomic and fiahowl need to take their turns. i'll update tommorow
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i forgot how to pony
1000 res
400 red
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you know, one of the reasons why i stopped updating this topic is because i lost the piece of text saying how much pollution was the limit
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also i should do something with clean technologies the game isn't so simple and dumb
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I thought we stopped because people got bored.
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generate a new value