Universe Sandbox
General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: monmarfori on July 29, 2009, 11:40:30 PM
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You know white holes form billions of years.
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No one knows for sure. So you can't really say that.
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I don't believe in white holes.
My logic tells me that black holes suck in matter, and that matter either stays there, evaporates or in very strange cases comes out, but of the same black hole.
I don't believe in black holes being connected with anything, before I hear any kind of evidence for it.
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Well it is very improbable that white holes exist (at least we haven't find one yet). Infact we should see a reduction in their mass, as nothing is created, but transformed.
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I always thought the black hole exploded into a white hole. More logical if you compare it with the life cycle of stars. You have to remember the universe is full of patterns, since everywhere the same rules apply.
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The problem is that a black hole isn't a star, but the last phase of a very big star ;).
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No, he means to relate TO a star's life cycle. :P ;)
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Pressure becomes so strong that nuclear fusion starts again, needless of hydrogen. SIMPLE AND NO RESEARCH NEEDED. I can't believe how dumb the world's smartest people can be. This could explain the big bang.
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I remember one time, they said something and didn't know what caused it, and it was so simple and related to something else I knew, and it's like "Are you idiots?!?!". It was so obvious... Over thinking, over thinking... :P
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Lol.
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Pressure becomes so strong that nuclear fusion starts again, needless of hydrogen. SIMPLE AND NO RESEARCH NEEDED. I can't believe how dumb the world's smartest people can be. This could explain the big bang.
I don't think that I understood well, but if you are talking of black holes it is wrong, instead, if you are talking of the last phase of a star it is correct :P
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I guess the pressure of a black hole would rather make something like a huge sub-atomic particle rather than molecules?
Something similar to a quark star?
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well nobody knows exactly what happens into a black hole, but i suppose that even the subatomic particles are pressed dogheter in a singularity
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How else is uranium formed? Our star makes helium, atomic number 2. Black holes are about 100x the sun. Atomic number for uranium is about 100. The more mass the bigger elements are formed by nuclear fusion. They claim that the heavy elements are formed by supernovas, but how do we know that? We can hardly even catch one on video. ???
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What is a white hole?
"A white hole is the theoretical time reversal of a black hole. While a black hole acts as a vacuum, drawing in any matter that crosses the event horizon, a white hole acts as a source that ejects matter from its event horizon. The sign of the acceleration is invariant under time reversal, so both black and white holes attract matter. The only potential difference between them is in the behavior at the horizon."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_holes
Q&A about white holes
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=108
You know white holes form billions of years.
White holes are a very interesting idea. Where did you get your claim?
My logic tells me that...
Why would your logic be any different than mine? :)
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It forms when black hole suddenly collapses. or maybe unknown
It is not existed in our universe.
[Dan - Fixed double post]
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And won't it collapse if nuclear fusion starts? If it started it would go from vacuum to explosion. This is what nuclear fusion does in a star. The star collects matter and when there is enough it ignites. So why can't this happen with a black hole? It collects so much matter that the explosion overcomes gravity and it shoots out the dense matter in the form of heavy elements. Try to give me a reason not to believe that. ???
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How heavy?
Unoctbium heavy? (Element 182)
Or Unbitrium heavy? (123)
Or...
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Where did you find that elements?
The heaviest element on the elements table is the Ununoctio (118) (I hope it is the right word because my dictionary doesn't have it)
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Ununoctium. It could be Ununoctio in Italian though. ;)
Those would be the names of the elements if there were that many protons in the nuclei of an atom.
Black holes are one of a kind, since the density is infinity (if it is a singularity/if not, then close to that), It should be able to induce fusion like a star. They emit much more energy than a star, in the x and gamma range, there is more energy, and more mass to fuse hydrogen to helium to carbon, and eventually to elements not yet discovered, eventually getting so dense, they collapse (like they can! haha) and implode, expelling any material inside, in (possibly) highly radioactive, dense material.
that goes along with hbmp88's theory.
It's the Black Hole Fusion Density Theory!
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Wait, is there a singularity inside a black hole?
Infinite density means it doesn't fill anything. There's no "close" to infinite density, since everything else would be finite.
Are you sure that it isn't just a very very very extremetly high density, and not a singularity?
I don't understand how anything can be infinite. Infinite small and infinite large perhaps, but nothing that exists should be that.
By the way, hbmp88, since the gravity of the black hole is too big for matter to escape beyond the event horizon, I guess it wouldn't explode. The gravity holds it together, and since light can't escape, nothing can have velocity enough to escape. :)
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I think that we need a good explanation of what is a black hole and how it forms...
Let's start from the beginning.
Black holes form from very dense stars, much bigger than our sun. When the hydrogen in the core of a star finishes, the energy become less and the core collapse and become more dense, the pressure rise the temperature again and the elium starts to burn like idrogen before creating carbon. When the elium finishes again, the energy emitted become less and the gravity make the carbon core collapse again, starting a new reaction with the carbon that creates neon. The star then is like an onion with different strates. From hydrogen at the surface to the neon in the core. The process reapeats again neon becomes oxigen, oxigen becomes silicium and silicium becomes iron.
Here start the problems. Unlike the previous elements the fusion of the iron requires more energy than the process creates, so the gravity "win" and the core suffers a final collapse: the outer part of the star explodes and all the elements created are shoot in the space (this elements in the future may form other stars and planets, and maybe life). The core collapses more and more, untill it reaches a critical density, so big than even light can't escape: a black hole is created. All the remaining matter of the star falls into the events' horizon and (probably) become a superdense degenerated matter: the atoms are destroyed, and also neutrons and protons are split into quark up and down. These particles are than pressed into a singularity, a point with no dimentions and with infinite density and heath. This is why can't be a reaction similar to the one into the star core into a black hole. Simply there aren't atoms. By the way even if the reaction was there, the products of it could never escape from the events' horizon. What happens into a black hole cannot influence the universe out of that border.
If nothing can escape, why the black hole emits radiation like x-ray?
The answer must be found into the quantistic theory. (This is not a part that I know very well, so it could be wrong).
In the vacuum, everywhere in the universe, a couple of particles are created, one of matter and one of antimatter. After an infinitesimal time, they join and annihilate.
But what happens when the particles are created just near an events' horizon? One particle fall into the black hole, and the other escape at the speed of light. That's it. The x-ray emission is not created directly by the black hole, it doesn't come from the singularity. Nothing can escape a black hole.
Please tell me if this part is correct.
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Yes, that sounds right. The photons that are emitted comes from the matter near the black hole and not anything that has ever been inside them.
However, are you sure that it IS a singularity? ???
By the way, I don't think the particles are being created, but perhaps they're being turned into matter from energy, like E=mc^2. :)
Also, I just think all that's needed to create the x-rays and radiation around the black hole is heated matter. Our bodies make infrared radiation because of the temperature. Stars glow red when they have low temperatures, blue when they have high temperatures. So, very warm objects radiate ultraviolet, then x-ray and gamma-radiation, I think.
And I guess the matter around a black hole is very warm?
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I think so, as it is compressed (not directly by the black hole but in the accretion disk around it).
I believe that nobody in this world knows exactly if it is a singularity or not, and however it doesn't matter so much because nothing changes out of that strange thing that is a black hole :)
However we will always try to find a solution as life (so humans but not only) is curious ;)
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Wait, is there a singularity inside a black hole?
Infinite density means it doesn't fill anything. There's no "close" to infinite density, since everything else would be finite.
Are you sure that it isn't just a very very very extremetly high density, and not a singularity?
I don't understand how anything can be infinite. Infinite small and infinite large perhaps, but nothing that exists should be that.
By the way, hbmp88, since the gravity of the black hole is too big for matter to escape beyond the event horizon, I guess it wouldn't explode. The gravity holds it together, and since light can't escape, nothing can have velocity enough to escape. :)
What I meant was:
Say for example, SOMEHOW, SOMWHERE, a million was infinity (I know it's finite, but, this is just an example), so CLOSE to infinity would be 999,999.
So How about Googol kg/cm3.
If it lost some mass in the explosion, at some point in time (whether it be a yottasecond or a yoctosecond) It would lose density therfore having no even horizon (correct me if im wrong), letting all not in grasp (the expelled particles) escape.
Section II of the Black Hole Fusion Density Theory (above)
Yay! Let's get a theory going! Do you like it, anyone?
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What I meant was:
Say for example, SOMEHOW, SOMWHERE, a million was infinity (I know it's finite, but, this is just an example), so CLOSE to infinity would be 999,999.
So How about Googol kg/cm3.
It will be a very very very dense object. So dense that atoms are destroyed and also protons and neutrons, so no elements could be created.
If it lost some mass in the explosion, at some point in time [...]
There will be no explosion, because there isn't any fusion.
[...] It would lose density therefore having no even horizon (correct me if I'm wrong), [...]
It isn't the density that creates the events' horizon. The mass into the Black hole could hold the 99.99% of the volume of the events' horizon, but it could never escape and the black hole will always remain a black hole.
P.s.
Section II of the Black Hole Fusion Density Theory (above)
To be correct it isn't a theory. A theory is an Hypothesis already demonstrated. :)
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And what about the heat being created inside the black hole and the heat being sucked in. It can't just sit there forever. If nuclear fusion starts and it makes the heaviest atoms possible for its mass, then where does all the heat go? That would be like ultra-nuclear fusion. I can't imagine how much energy that would be and you are saying it just stays the same. Wouldn't it greatly expand and then collapse when there is enough heat? If all the heat stays in, there has to eventually be so much that it has an effect on the black hole.
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If matter can escape, energy can too!
Part of Section II
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If matter can escape, energy can too!
If matter CANNOT escape, energy CANNOT either!
In the quantistic theory the energy is the interaction between particles driven by other particles (eg. electrons, muons, barions, etc...). These particles cannot travel faster than c and so they cannot exit from the black hole. The heath travel with electromagnetic waves (so with light) and light travel proper at the speed of light and so it cannot exit from the black hole.
We don't know exactly what happens into a black hole, but we are sure that nothing can exit.
It's not me, it is demonstrated that nothing can exit a black hole!
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If matter can escape, energy can too!
If matter CANNOT escape, energy CANNOT either!
Same thing.
Well, it is. YOur just saying it from a different point of wiew.
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You mean if energy cannot escape, neither can matter. :P
About the energy inside a black hole:
If matter turns into energy inside a black hole, and if a photon does not have a mass, the black hole will in the end lose so much mass that the energy and matter will be able to escape.
However, if the black hole does not change the form of the matter into energy, it may be trapped inside it forever. :)
But, if the matter is very hot, I assume some of it will turn into photons, so, that must mean black holes will lose their matter in the end. :)
Correct me if I'm wrong. :P
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The particles, however, remain into the black hole.
(I'm not sure of this, I should have read it somewhere)
If mass creates gravity (F = G*(m*M)/d^2) and E = mc^2 then Energy creates gravity (again i'm not sure at all).
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The strange thing is that photons don't have masses.
Or, earlier I read that it was possible that they could have masses below a very very low value.
But now Wikipedia says no mass. So if that's correct, energy doesn't make gravity.
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I don't think that the heath makes matter become energy, but instead, it could transform itself in matter.
EDIT: In the particle accelerators here on the Earth, we create matter by making 2 particles crash at relativistic speeds. This make the enormous amount of energy involved transformed into matter (so we obtain the various subatomic particles)
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You mean if energy cannot escape, neither can matter. :P
Again, same thing.
If energy cannot escape, neither can matter.
That means that light, or heat can't escape, yes, so since matter goes slower, it can't.
So, If matter can escape, energy can!
That means that if slower matter can escape, the faster light and heat, obviously can too!
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And what's the why for this enormous post? I thought that it was clear...
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But in my case, where I corrected it, there was a diffrence.
If energy cannot escape, neither can matter. True.
If matter cannot escape, neither can energy. False.
Since energy is faster. :)
...In a vacuum at least.
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If matter cannot escape, neither can energy. False.
Since energy is faster. :)
Im saying can ;)
And what's the why for this enormous post?
Umm... to make it clear.
I thought that it was clear...
I didn't think it was.
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It is not related with what we are sayind now but...
The more an object goes fast the more it will appear massive for an external observer.
A part from the space-time dilatation, a normal object, to reach the speed of light, should have infinite mass.
So speed creates gravity...
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white holes don´t exist.
Think logical. What would happen if such an object spills out matter in large amount?
Right! gravity wins over matter and a black hole would form.
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But if the matter is spewn out faster than the escape velocity... ???
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who cares? Its still a gigantic ammount of matter that would constantly collapse into black hole.
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Don't worry, I don't believe in white holes either. :P
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If white holes exist they are joint to a black hole, so the first black hole should not increase its mass if it is ejected in another point of the space-time. Till now we didn't see any black hole with constant/decreasing mass.
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Whitw holes. Meh... Who cares. ;D ;D ;D lol
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i get confused with white holes... :-\ i mean, it seems to just be one end of a wormhole
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You know white holes are repelling objects. for example. a star passing near a white hole. then it will throw out (or repel).
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Yes I know, like in that dust game.
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But. it is only in earth editor.
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I believe that Einstein's theory of Realativity stated that Black, white and worm holes could exist. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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I believe that Einstein's theory of Realativity stated that Black, white and worm holes could exist. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Black is right, wormholes is also right, but I don't think it said anything about white holes.
Also, remember wormholes don't have to connect black holes or stuff like that in games. Wormholes probably exist on a very small level, much smaller than quarks.
I just think white holes is a strange idea that tries to make places in the universe magically connected, so we can use them to travel. I don't believe in it, I more think it's wishful thinking. :P
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I don't think that the heath makes matter become energy, but instead, it could transform itself in matter.
EDIT: In the particle accelerators here on the Earth, we create matter by making 2 particles crash at relativistic speeds. This make the enormous amount of energy involved transformed into matter (so we obtain the various subatomic particles)
That isn't actually creating matter, just changing it. And maybe white holes and black holes are similar to magnets. (joking) But maybe they actually are...
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Look it up on wikipedia. Interesting stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole)
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Here's something interesting... (Note: you have to go to the source because the picture is too small :P)
Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Multiverse.jpg