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Author Topic: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)  (Read 1667 times)

afan

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Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« on: June 15, 2016, 12:29:45 PM »
Okay, greenouse climate model is great but it also seems only the way to terraform with carbon dioxide manipulation.
So I can heat up anything, but almost nothing to cool down. Stabilize the climate without manually changing orbit and albedo (with disabling climate model) parameters, I mean. Global warming everywhere, heh.

Usually albedo is changing relatively to ice cover. But if the planet is actually hot and covered by lava, close enough to the sun, I have no way to create ice shields (or other kind) in order to reflect the solar heat while climate model is enabled.

So, I hope that there will be the ways to cooling the planet and make it stable.

But what about ozone layer influense? Clouds?

The magnetic field currently just the field. Hope that some day it will affect on atmosphere mass losing and radiation filtering also.

Thanks for attention and sorry for my bad english :)

acvyse

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2016, 10:16:17 AM »
Okay, greenouse climate model is great but it also seems only the way to terraform with carbon dioxide manipulation.
So I can heat up anything, but almost nothing to cool down. Stabilize the climate without manually changing orbit and albedo (with disabling climate model) parameters, I mean. Global warming everywhere, heh.

Usually albedo is changing relatively to ice cover. But if the planet is actually hot and covered by lava, close enough to the sun, I have no way to create ice shields (or other kind) in order to reflect the solar heat while climate model is enabled.

So, I hope that there will be the ways to cooling the planet and make it stable.

But what about ozone layer influense? Clouds?

The magnetic field currently just the field. Hope that some day it will affect on atmosphere mass losing and radiation filtering also.

Thanks for attention and sorry for my bad english :)

Ozone layer influences are very little in the troposphere...probably sub-grid and too small to even calculate. Clouds do have an effect, but it is currently unknown and also subgrid. However, there can be parameterizations that could attenuate some of the outgoing radiation (long and short) simulating clouds.

Remember: IN = OUT for a total balanced climate.

I don't know of any magnetic field effects on the atmosphere and climate.

In response to your lava example, if your planet is close to the sun and full of lava, there is no way to create ice shields. Summer and winter temperatures would be too warm not allowing ice and snow to buildup ahead of each shoulder season. The only way to cool the planet in that scenario is fill it with water or change the orbit - further away from the sun.

afan

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 01:22:49 PM »
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Ozone layer influences are very little in the troposphere...
Actually, oxygen itself making the planet much cooler. See "Great Oxygenation Event" which made Iceball Earth very long ago.

As far as US2 simulation shows, even 1.5L of our Sun activity is not enough to melt this iceball (due to melting continental ice sheets, there is a cascade warming up to a tens of degrees what making Earth too hot fast (up to 50-70 degrees C))

Very little, you say? Okay, okay...

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I don't know of any magnetic field effects on the atmosphere and climate.
http://phys.org/news/2014-05-earth-magnetic-field-important-climate.html

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In response to your lava example, if your planet is close to the sun and full of lava, there is no way to create ice shields.
And that's why I wrote theese suggestions.
Becouse the "melting laser" is already announced. So it's logically to wait for frozing one.

Physics_Hacker

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 04:31:26 PM »
So it's logically to wait for frozing one.

Um...Actual lasers can only melt thing, heat them, there is no such thing as a "freezing laser" and really can't be...If we want this sandbox to stay physics based, the devs shouldn't include anything that is not allowed by physics (Besides things that can't be avoided because of algorithmic or hardware limitations but are an effect of something that is allowed by physics)

afan

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2016, 07:43:14 PM »
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..Actual lasers can only melt thing, heat them, there is no such thing as a "freezing laser" and really can't be...
Actually, even usual laser capable to melt the large areas of surface today is beyong Sci-Fi. Actually, changing values of body materal (like hidrogen to iron and vice versa) is no less tnan alchemy. Changing star age - don't even know what to call.
So stop overdoing with realism.

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.If we want this sandbox to stay physics based, the devs shouldn't include anything that is not allowed by physics
Including Police Box and Monolith objects? Global gravity constant changing? Objects launching?
You gotta be kidding me.

If we want this sandbox to stay physics based than devs shold continue to keep all the physics calculations strive for reality. But not the user possibilities.
Otherwise, it will not just boring but also less educational. How else do you think I can quickly demonstrate the impact of ice sheets in the albedo and climate, without changing the orbital parameters?

It's not just simulator, but sandbox with educational functions not just for scientists bout for everyone. Don't forget about that. If I will need the realism, I'll just read a textbook, or better yet, go for a walk.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 08:09:43 PM by afan »

acvyse

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 09:22:53 AM »
You seem to be here strictly for the purpose of arguing. Someone close this topic.

Physics_Hacker

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 12:55:13 PM »
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..Actual lasers can only melt thing, heat them, there is no such thing as a "freezing laser" and really can't be...
Actually, even usual laser capable to melt the large areas of surface today is beyong Sci-Fi. Actually, changing values of body materal (like hidrogen to iron and vice versa) is no less tnan alchemy. Changing star age - don't even know what to call.
So stop overdoing with realism.

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.If we want this sandbox to stay physics based, the devs shouldn't include anything that is not allowed by physics
Including Police Box and Monolith objects? Global gravity constant changing? Objects launching?
You gotta be kidding me.

If we want this sandbox to stay physics based than devs shold continue to keep all the physics calculations strive for reality. But not the user possibilities.
Otherwise, it will not just boring but also less educational. How else do you think I can quickly demonstrate the impact of ice sheets in the albedo and climate, without changing the orbital parameters?

It's not just simulator, but sandbox with educational functions not just for scientists bout for everyone. Don't forget about that. If I will need the realism, I'll just read a textbook, or better yet, go for a walk.

Just because it would be difficult for a civilization to develop that kind of technology doesn't mean it's impossible. A freezing laser actually is impossible.
Sure, changing materials in a planet may be impossible, but it doesn't go against physics either and that is a part of the simulator that really can't be taken out if we want to have realistic planets, anyway.
Changing star age could be taken as speeding up time more than the sandbox can do on its own (Do you really want to wait 11 years for your system to get to just 1 billion years old at the normal 1 day/sec timestep? Even longer if you want to include moons?) Or reversing it, so that your star is younger, or to reset how long you've been running the sim.
I'm not trying to overdo the realism. I just don't want this "game" to stray off the path of near and acceptable realism that has been set. By your logic, why don't we change the rings to look solid instead of as particles? That would make them easier to edit wouldn't it?

Those aren't completely prohibited, pus those are small-scale objects, comparitively. Also, gravity constant changing isn't against physics, because it's changing how gravity behaves, not making it do something it can't.
Objects launching is pure convenience, and I'm fine with that, so that we don't have to spend hours setting up an orbit that will cause an object to collide with another. Sure, that would be more realistic, but at least in my view it's acceptable.

Is reading a textbook hands-on? Do you actually get to see the effects of things if you don't set them up right? No, because a textbook isn't going to tell you about things like that.




afan

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Re: Winter is coming (or some climate suggestions)
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2016, 05:26:39 PM »
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I just don't want this "game" to stray off the path of near and acceptable realism that has been set.
But somehow you came to me, but not to them. We all have own visions. But why do you need me for telling this?

Anyhow, in this particular case, I strongly disagree with you. Becouse I needed this tool, but it does not exist. So I  suggested to create it.
No extra fancy. Just practicality.

I think it is better to end our coversation now. My English definitely not good for such discussions. And already people appeared who dont'like my arguments much enough. It's definitely not worth it to have problems with the moderators.

My fault. Next time, I will suggest something only trough the program feedback directly to the devs.

Good luck.